Guild vs Guild world upgrade for attracting more players to BG

[Lambert]

Here are some thoughts about re-vamping the PvP system to make it more dynamic and also to allow for inherent guild support that may assist in cutting down on some of the toxicity of meta guild politics.

First let's define meta guild politics. Basically, the way I describe it is when players use friendships on server or other platforms to defame, slander, or undermine guild leaders because they are jealous, want to control things, cannot work well with others, or are suffer from "toxic" personalities. You have to provide real reason why Guild memberships pays off, for all players. and rewards them for cooperative play.

This is how it works. In essence, you give real power to Guild Leaders, in a way that it effects guild players in game.

First off - Dynamic locations designed specifically for Guild War. Battle zones, war zones, or conflict zones. These are very well-crafted artistically crafted maps. Large. With four bases one in each of the four corners. Each month you can build up your base by purchasing guards, items, and other things as the guild leader. Guild officers can likewise buy enhancements from within the inner keep room merchant. One day a month, the map goes hot, and players in a guild keep may cross over to attack to destroy the front gate, sneak in to steel the guild payout treasure (value of all the paid out enhancements of the Guild Keep on that battle map in gold (+) 1 epic item per 100,000 gold spent on defenses), and seige weaponry/dragon/giant epic guards. Only guild members may access a guild keep main door. Only guild leaders or guild officers may access in the inner keep door to access central chamber and inner keep archer roof areas. Outer wall is accessible to all guild members. If you can hold the keep for 1 month everyone in your guild receives a bonus to % to find better treasure in the server. If you hold it for 3 months all your skills gain a +10 for you guildmates. Hold a keep for 6 months Guild leader and officers get access to inner room in that keep to a special merchant selling epic or specialized equipment (different type of merchant for each guild keep), and if you hold it for 12 months another locked guild keep room door opens giving access to the guild leader only (who can let in whom they choose) to a master crafter who can upgrade at cost weapons and armor with additional abilities - likewise unique for each keep (only usuable once per use). Hold the keep for 2 years the guild leader gets a rod that allows to summon unique guild NPC heroes designed by the guildmaster and only useable inside the Guild Hall, Battle Keep inner Keep, or in specialized free PvP areas. The guild keeps themselves are very small and vary in style. I would say an elven tree fort, a darkspire esque banite stone keep, a noble tower, and shadow forest with ancient walls for drow or rogues.

Also, if you keep your guild keep up and prevent damage to the front gate you can all get a gold and xp reward to all guild members. Depending on the % damage to the gate decrease by % the rewards to guild members. The gates have 1,000 hit points and more can be bought by the guild leader/master.

You could also have 2 such war zones. One for the surface and one for the underdark.

The map is a PvP free area designed with all specialized builds functionalities to optimize benefits for all characters. Roosts for archers only accessible via survival skill or specialized teleport. Areas where only high survival characters can pass. Areas that give bonus points or penalaties to hide and move silently. Swamps or water areas requiring waters breathing. There may also be magic dead areas or dispel areas that can be purchased on a keep if it wants to play defensively only.

Another thought for a PvP free zone is a map that only allows guilded members to enter with either the Guild leader or a Guild officer. There is a central area that you have to get to in order to get rewards. It is an only accessible certain times a month due to "seasonal" or "weather" effects. Thus, it may be a frozen pass that is sealed by snow, or an area normally filled with poison gasses that is cleared once a month. However, it has two starting points, or maybe more. And in order for the Guild Master/Guildofficer key to work to open the area, another guild leader or officer from another guild must likewise open their access point at the same time. Once a point is oppened you have 5 minutes to enter then it locks and cannot be re-opponed. You then have a set time to get to the top or the main location target. Fighting both spawns and adversary guild members. Or maybe, working together with antoher guild. The monsters are challenging, and you have a set time to get to the key locations. Of course, you could try sneaking or other modes of movement. However, teleport does not work. The rewards should vary randomly and is unkown until you may make it to the main central point. It could be a boss monster, a treasure trove, a forge to add skills to 1 equipment peice, etc. This map is only accessible once a month, and not on the same days as a war zone.

The end result is this hopefully will attract more players who get filtered into the overall server, but who get to let loose and PvP in set areas, wiht time limits. They have to belong to an organized factions with set behavior. Guild Leaders obviously can choose not to accept or kick out non-compliant players or character form their guild. So you only will get rp driven cooperative players, at least more likely, involved in this free PvP zone.

For a guild to pass as a guild in terms of using this functionality, the guild mast have at least five members to register in game at a guild merchant. A guild member can drop out of that guild at that merchant thus de-activating the guildleaders/masters ability to use this functionality. This will make guild member selection much more selective as guild leaders will not take guild members who are not reliable to join the team and requies that only healthy robust guilds may participate in this type of play. In theory.

Most of these ideas are not my own. They were the ideas of Gangi who was developing a NWN1 world sequel to The Guardian Chronicles server. The original TGC server was designed and ran by Seranne Jade. Some of the reward specifics are my own invention. I also designed the keeps for Gangi for his server. They server launched only in beta and the keeps were never fully fleshed out unfortunately.

Lastly, you might consider changing PvP functionality a little. For example if you are in party and someone attacks a party member, they automatically become hostile to all part members. Also, if the party leader sets someone hostile, they become hostile for everyone in the party.


Lam

[Calodan]

Dungeons and Dragons is a cooperative critical thinking story telling role play game. PvP is for other games. The server does not need to balance for PvP because DnD does not do PvP and is not what it was designed to do.
That is just to start. Alternately I wouldn't want to draw in players with PvP. PvP is a toxic gaming environment that does little to further human relations at all. Server can do a lot of things this is not it.

[Blackman D]

PvP itself is not toxic, there are just a lot of people who can't handle not winning.

The majority of the people who I was friends with on the server was after we had a pvp fight for whatever reason and of course were not bitter or otherwise an ass about it. The 1% I'm sure, but toxic people are going to be toxic with or without pvp.

[JustAnotherGuy]

This is a broad brush statement, and I realize that there are exceptions. But as a rule, the people that would be attracted purely for PvP are toxic. I agree that PvP itself isn't toxic, but those that would come because of PvP generally are.

As to the whole idea put forward, I'm against it from the start. PvP, and the story it generates, should be its own reward. Putting in rewards for PvP is somewhat antithetical to what we've built; especially when you consider that for a great many players, to go do the PvP would be a breach of character (and therefore "anti-RP"). It's hard to come up with a good story-line as to why most of the current guilds would go to a new place and establish a strong-hold and try to hold it. Might be able to work in some Radiant Heart or adventurers versus the Zhentarim, but that'd be about it. Most (if not all) other guilds would have to make up some contrived reason to participate.

[selhan]

I can totally agree it aint just Pvpers thats toxic. But I like getting into the face of toxic, Caplocking dont make me shiver

I've always said, pvp is great . But I mean great as in , it was birthed or given birth to a RP line. Pvp for rewards ? Thats what pit fighting is for me thinks.

[Kiran]

PVPers are the lifeblood of most servers. As with everything, if it is spawned from good roleplay, it can be really fulfilling and fun.

People who can't handle anything going wrong to their character or losing in roleplay is impossible is the real toxic problem this server has, or those few individuals who take what is being said in-game as a attack on their in real life character.

And lets not forget those roleplayers who emote what they are thinking.. *Thinks Sirion smells and is a bad person..* Even if they are right, it is just so awful.

And anyone playing an elf.

PVP might be the cure for such people and enforce that they die permanently.

[Blackman D]

And anyone playing an elf.

lets make kinslaying great again

[izzul]

im backing up Elves this time,
such as Magneto change sides every so often

[Lambert]

Ok, so I actually agree with everyone's opinions. I think everyone is generally toxic most of the time and we have to struggle and work hard to be friendly and productive server members and buddies. I also think the only thing that will bring BG numbers up is "kinslayer wars."

From my experience in PnP being a GM and player for Star Frontiers and DND 2.0 and 3.5 in the recent and distant past, I noticed that my players really gravitate to battle and fighting. Maybe they are type A sorts with pent up aggression being they are a lawyer, businemess man, real estate guy, tech security, and doctor. Don't know. I notice some people find full roleplaying all day fulfilling while others find it boring. I've always found a little battle as a lot of fun, but maybe that is because I generally did well enough in PvP (even before I knew how to build and design a toon). In fact in BG back in the day be most fun I've ever had was hunting down, PVP at sight, drow on the surface with my surface toon Aloria ap Ravar. That was the most fun I've ever had in BG aside from working with the first elven council and heping to set the groundwork for Doron Amar (and getting my name for it chosen). Now, the drows I beat up were awasome. Lost with class. Didn't cry or wine about it, but maybe jockingly complained like Izz'orgoll saying "Come on again Aloria?" after knocking him out for the third or fourth time. But life went on. We didn't do things to piss each other off or annoy each other afterwards. And if I lost to Izz'orgoll with Aloria I would have congratulated him.

The server numbers are pretty bad while a world like Arelith are doing great. Maybe BG should emulate Arelith more or create some more dynamic spaces were those who are not afraid of PvP may venture, and those who are more sedentary can rp all day in other areas.

Personally, announcing PvP intentions seems silly in lots of situations and defeats the purpose. I've never been an aggressive PvPr and almost never initiated PvP, however I did engage in it about 33 times in another server. While it is nice to have some "safe spaces" for the server, if the whole server is a "safe space" it becomes extremely dull. Life is difficult and challenging. These DnD worlds are supposed to be brutal and difficult. What is the difference between dying to the server spawns vs an evil beligerant toon? I garrantuee you there isn't a build in the game that you can't defeat with patience and strategy. But also keep in mind that some people are extremely good at conflict, and can defeat multiple foes in PvP, even while alone. LIfe is like that sometimes.

Lam

[JustAnotherGuy]

To clarify my post, I am not against PvP. I personally do not engage it in very often, but I do not shy away from it when RP leads to it. What I am against is a reward system for PvP, especially when said rewards can only be gotten in what would essentially be an OOC move for most.

PvP, when done right, can be very fulfilling. On my original toon on the server, I had an amazing story develop that was driven by PvP. On my current toon however, I've only engaged in PvP a few times (even counting sparring matches). I can think of three instances off the top of my head that were actual PvP; two of them I won, and then they led to the loser OOC berating me. The other I lost, and it led to some story.

Another thing about a PvP map is that our classes are not balanced for PvP (and I don't think they should be, necessarily). For instance, when the Green Enclave was at full power, we'd have 5 dragons walking around when we patrolled, plus 3-4 STR based rangers, and a couple DEX based rangers, all supported by bards. That would be a hard combo to beat.

To top that off, there are PvP builds, and there are non-PvP builds. Right now there's many viable PvE builds to allow for a range of RP opportunities while still being able to handle PvE content. If we became PvP focused, our builds would be much more shoe-horned into a mold of builds.

[Blackman D]

Izz'orgoll saying "Come on again Aloria?"

Izzy was definitely the greatest drow to ever raid the surface... they actually lost quite a lot so idk why people were so afraid of them but dem boys always had fun

rip drow raids

[Tekill]

I have recently been playing a server where dying actually really sucks. You loose a lot of experience when you die and basically have to be rescued or you have to wait until reset.

And that is the other thing, obtaining experience isn't just a formality to reaching your max level so that you can hang out with all the other max level players. It is hard to obtain, something that is an actual goal to achieve over time -to the point were you forget to obsess about getting a new level every time you log in. You don't get 70 exp every time you open your mouth to say something stupid.

There are no epic levels- so it so much easier to balance- especially for DM's.

Magic is low- Power creep is closely guarded and prevented whenever humanly possible. You are a character that might have a nice magic item or two and not just a min-maxed list of end gear magic item statistics.

Yet even with low magic and low magic items, the crafting system on this server is challenging and amazing.

The dungeons are so impossible that you have to go with a sizable group or you don't go at all. Teamwork is vital. Your character build is important in how you contribute to any team.

Because teamwork is so important in getting experience, pvp and related pvp mongering activities are not too much of an issue. Death actually has ramifications and so does leveling so the toxic pvp'ers are even cautious about who they monger.

You can become Monster PC's, to which you can interact with players- by hunting and doing involuntary butt stuff to. Okay, I am making a huge assumption about the main goal of monster PC's. I assume that is what most Monster PC's are trying to obtain.... Regardless, it is very scary to be walking down the road and all of a sudden a random monster 5x more powerful than you wants to have a chat.

Basically you are a mortal adventurer and not the fantasy version of Captain America.

Just today I bumped into two players - and were were then attacked by a bunch of mobs. Might have been a dm but might have been random as well. We barely survived. The one player tanking the ambush against us told me they just made it with one hit point remaining. This was just a random encounter where we were about 50 feet outside the safety of a main hub...and we were fighting to the end just for survival. It was so friggin random- and awesome.

BGTSCC painted itself into a corner a long long time ago. There has been constant attempts to make or even suggest changes that are needed to create a viable server that creates an actual element of danger and excitement among the players. Over the years we have suggested everything from more Conflict and PVP related RP to permadeath to heavier death penalties. A lot of the suggestions were great and at least suggested to making the players more mortal -all of them ignored.
What BG really needed was anything that would prevent us all from walking around like demi-Gods snow flake care bears crying at the tiniest indignity of the prospect of losing in any way shape or form.

Status quo aside, this server always had lots of great RP and imaginative players. Players way more creative and clever then me. As much as I like to gripe, I will always find time to hang out with you all. A PVP mini game is not the answer but it is looking in the right direction. Think more radical.

Server wipe!
Nerf Paladins!
Do something that might make everyone quit!

Edit - I removed a bit of unnecessary finger pointing.

[Steve]

I do wish there were more Guild challenges between PCs, like contests of skill & mettle. Tourneys. Etc.

Lots of fun bragging rights, and all furthering RP between characters, factions, etc.

And it can all be done without new mechanics. Just needs some will power and support to get it going.

[Lambert]

I agree with a lot of what you said Tkill, though I don't have the same experience of the server over the last decade or so. I came back after a 10-12 years break a few years ago.

[Tekill]

Well I should say during the last decade I think everyone has had different opinions on what they thought was the ideal rules and what they want out of the game. To each thier own. Although, I wouldnt want there to be no change at all because there is no consens on what changes to make.

Many of the changes over the decade have been good but many have seemed to make and already easy game, too easy. And discussion about attempts to counter this ended with: "we cant do that, everyone would quit".

I like the new maps, and making the mobs tougher is a good change. And to the OP, I have always thought that more conflict and faction vs faction is vital. But, I think, at this point, other aspects of the game should be reviewed first before moving on to including more pvp.

But I also assume that most people still playing feel, if its not broke, dont fix it.