Coming Soon: Discussion Thread (2019)

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Theodore01
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Coming Soon: Discussion Thread (2019)

Unread post by Theodore01 »

Endelyon wrote: Mon Feb 25, 2019 6:54 am
Thief Acrobat

Like any large guild, a thieves’ guild has many specialists within its ranks—pickpockets, burglars, swindlers, and even highway robbers. None of these, however, have the prestige of a Thief Acrobat—the superlative second-story burglar who is infamous for daring escapades across the city’s rooftops.

The Thief Acrobat excels at getting into and out of places no one else can. If every street-level entrance to the Jewelers’ Guild House is locked and well guarded, the thief-acrobat simply jumps atop the building from the roof of a nearby inn, throws a grappling hook to the highest minaret, runs up the attached rope to a shuttered window, and quickly picks the lock. Should her escape go awry once she has the goods, her gymnastic combat style keeps her out of harm’s way.

Most Thief Acrobats began as rogues and worked their way up through a guild’s ranks, but even Rangers, Barbarians, and even Illusionists (who wind up working for various regional thieves' guilds) are known to pursue the acrobatic arts from time to time.

Requirements
Skills: Tumble 10 ranks, Escape Artist 10 ranks
Feats: Evasion, Dash, Skill Focus: Tumble or Skill Focus: Escape Artist

Class Progression
Hit die: d6
Skill points: 6 + Int
Base Attack Bonus: High
Saves: Reflex
Class Skills: Appraise, Disable Device, Escape Artist, Hide, Move Silently, Open Lock, Perform, Search, Tumble

Class Features
Agile Fighting (Ex): A whirling, spinning thief-acrobat is a devilishly difficult target. Starting at 2nd level, a thief-acrobat gains a +1 dodge bonus to Armor Class. After 4th level, and when using combat expertise or improved combat expertise, this bonus becomes +2. This bonus is only applied if she is wearing light or no armor and is unencumbered.

Improved Knockdown (Ex): At 2nd level, the thief-acrobat gains Improved Knockdown as a bonus feat, even if she does not have the Knockdown feat prerequisite.

Springboard (Ex): The thief-acrobat somersaults into the air, bouncing off any foes in her way to pass beyond them nimbly and gaining a +4 Dodge Bonus to AC for 2 rounds. In addition, any foes she touches during these gymnastics must pass a fortitude save (DC: 10 + Dex + HD/2) or be stunned for two rounds. The Thief Acrobat may use this ability as often as once per minute as long as she is wearing light or no armor and is unencumbered.

Improved Evasion (Ex): A 4th-level thief-acrobat can avoid damage from certain attacks with a successful Reflex save and takes only half damage on a failed save. She may only do this if she is wearing light or no armor and is unencumbered.

Kip Up (Ex): At 5th level, as a free action, a thief-acrobat may immediately stand up from any prone position. She may only do this if she is wearing light or no armor and is unencumbered. (Knockdown Immunity)
This class still needs to pass a round of testing but otherwise should be released within the next week or two (assuming no major balance adjustments or bugfixes are needed). Please look forward to it.
Very nice PRC,

however the Requirements need some adjustment,
otherwise it would grand water domain clerics and insane buff (IKD,AC,tumble,KD immunity,high bab, reflex,.....) for just one feat investment.

Or maybe just exclude clerics from taking that PRC.
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Re: Thief Acrobat

Unread post by Endelyon »

I forgot to put in the description, but many of these abilities will only work in light or no armor. Amended the original post.
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Re: Thief Acrobat

Unread post by Endelyon »

After a bit of consideration I have bumped up the prerequisites up to make the class a bit more costly to buy into. I have amended the original post.
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Re: Thief Acrobat

Unread post by blacksoft »

Improved Knockdown (Ex): At 2nd level, the thief-acrobat gains Improved Knockdown as a bonus feat, even if she does not have the Knockdown feat prerequisite.

Springboard (Ex): The thief-acrobat somersaults into the air, bouncing off any foes in her way to pass beyond them nimbly and gaining a +4 Dodge Bonus to AC for 2 rounds. In addition, any foes she touches during these gymnastics must pass a fortitude save (DC: 10 + Dex + HD/2) or be stunned for two rounds. The Thief Acrobat may use this ability as often as once per minute as long as she is wearing light or no armor and is unencumbered.

So is this a dex based or strength based character??

Springboard sounds like dex-based for the stun DC and yet the PRC gets improved knockdown. What use is improved knockdown when going dex?

Also can you please explain what HD/2 is? Is that Hit Die for class or character? What creates the Hit Die? There is something very basic here I am missing. Would a Barbarian have better DC for Springboard stuns since his HD is 1d12 per level?

I stand confused...

Looks like a fun class.
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Endelyon
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Re: Thief Acrobat

Unread post by Endelyon »

It can function pretty well for a strength based character or a dex based character. The Springboard DC is based on character levels. So level 30 character = 15 in that calculation regardless of their class.
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Re: Thief Acrobat

Unread post by blacksoft »

Endelyon wrote: Wed Mar 06, 2019 4:00 pm It can function pretty well for a strength based character or a dex based character. The Springboard DC is based on character levels. So level 30 character = 15 in that calculation regardless of their class.
Thank you for responding so quickly. That 15 DC is really nice! I am already thinking about what I can do with this. I loved the thief acrobat from DDO (dungeons and dragons online).
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Re: Thief Acrobat

Unread post by Endelyon »

Me too. It's what inspired me to want to add the class. :)
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Re: Thief Acrobat

Unread post by blacksoft »

Endelyon wrote: Wed Mar 06, 2019 4:15 pm Me too. It's what inspired me to want to add the class. :)
:D It truly was an awesome game at one point.

(I moved away from DDO for a few reasons. The lag really hurt the instant action feel of the game where I could dodge around damage and have full control over my character all the time and two, as a casual gamer, I could not keep up with the changes every update which upturned my three characters I was alternating with. They were all first lifers and going to stay that way...)

Whirling Dervish sounds like a nice fit with the PRC.

Also, how come Swashbuckler's "acrobat skill mastery" does not count in place of a skill focus feat requirement? the Acrobat part of it sounds pretty quintessential.
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Re: Thief Acrobat

Unread post by Kaeldre »

I like the concept of this class. The idea of an acrobatic thief really comes across as a natural path they might choose to take. Personally, I feel it would be good to see some interplay with the escape artist skill. I feel like being able to snake out of certain effects fits like a glove. I would advocate a plain boost to the skill or a feat that makes it impossible to roll less than a 5 or 10 when making a skill check.

However, I do also feel like this class is a little overloaded at the moment. There are simply too many benefits granted at a low requirement. Keep in mind that 3 levels of whirling dervish gives you all the feat requirements for this class. That being the case, I would support either heightening the requirements to match the benefits given or scaling down the bonuses offered.

I think real power of this class comes from the knockdown immunity at mere 5 level investment. Thus, the easiest way to remedy the strength of the class would be to replace this with something similar but less powerful. Maybe something along the lines of my earlier suggestions in regards to escape artist. This would shift the focus of the class from plain immunity to specialized skill, while still keeping the core theme of acrobatics. It would also dissuade people dipping 5 levels merely to get the plain immunity.
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Re: Thief Acrobat

Unread post by KOPOJIbPAKOB »

Kaeldre wrote: Sat Mar 23, 2019 11:06 am I like the concept of this class. The idea of an acrobatic thief really comes across as a natural path they might choose to take. Personally, I feel it would be good to see some interplay with the escape artist skill. I feel like being able to snake out of certain effects fits like a glove. I would advocate a plain boost to the skill or a feat that makes it impossible to roll less than a 5 or 10 when making a skill check.

However, I do also feel like this class is a little overloaded at the moment. There are simply too many benefits granted at a low requirement. Keep in mind that 3 levels of whirling dervish gives you all the feat requirements for this class. That being the case, I would support either heightening the requirements to match the benefits given or scaling down the bonuses offered.

I think real power of this class comes from the knockdown immunity at mere 5 level investment. Thus, the easiest way to remedy the strength of the class would be to replace this with something similar but less powerful. Maybe something along the lines of my earlier suggestions in regards to escape artist. This would shift the focus of the class from plain immunity to specialized skill, while still keeping the core theme of acrobatics. It would also dissuade people dipping 5 levels merely to get the plain immunity.
Class looks fine where it is. It requires two useless feats and evasion which is problematic to get for certain builds. Dervish/Whlirling dervish have a great synergy with it indeed (don't see a problem here), but keep in mind that whirling dervish as well requires 2 feats and 8 hide/ms, and it greatly restricts your building options (besides your base class, you can pick only 1 prestige class since 2/4 are occupied with TA and WD). As for just Dervish, this class is terrible for dip and is meant to have all the 10 levels.

I was playing around a lot in build editor and TA is not that easy to fit into a build. Melee R19/WD3/SD3/TA5 was the most optimal solution I found (replace Rogue with phantom if you wish), but I wouldn't call this build imbalanced. I know you can add several mountains of baseless text here, but instead I suggest just waiting a month or two and requesting server stats to see TA popularity (spoiler: it won't be this much big).
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Re: Thief Acrobat

Unread post by Kaeldre »

KOPOJIbPAKOB wrote: Sat Mar 23, 2019 11:37 am Class looks fine where it is. It requires two useless feats and evasion which is problematic to get for certain builds. Dervish/Whlirling dervish have a great synergy with it indeed (don't see a problem here), but keep in mind that whirling dervish as well requires 2 feats and 8 hide/ms, and it greatly restricts your building options (besides your base class, you can pick only 1 prestige class since 2/4 are occupied with TA and WD). As for just Dervish, this class is terrible for dip and is meant to have all the 10 levels.
The class does require two almost useless feats, you are right. But so does a lot of other classes which people build for. In order to take weapon master you need 3 almost useless feats (Mobility, Spring attack and whirlwind attack). The 2 other feats required for the class also force you to invest somewhere between 6-10 attribute points. My point is that a few useless feats wont hinder people from taking the class.

In hindsight you might be right in that whirling dervish isn't a great class to start off with, and thus the great synergy is balanced. It is still worth considering that whirling dervish is an option, so a limited pool of PrC classes is not a given.

I am still in disagreement that this is a terrible dipping class. For 5 levels you are still getting:
- Immunity to knockdown
- Improved Evasion
- High BAB
- High Skill Points
- Knockdown
- Improved Knockdown

Maybe I am the one being to conservative here. I've never been a fan of plain immunities, and that might be a reason why I am biased against the current state of the class. I still think that something needs to get scaled down, if not the immunity then perhaps lower the class from High BAB to Medium BAB, just like the D&D version.

https://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Thief-Acr ... .5e_Class)
KOPOJIbPAKOB wrote: Sat Mar 23, 2019 11:37 am I was playing around a lot in build editor and TA is not that easy to fit into a build. Melee R19/WD3/SD3/TA5 was the most optimal solution I found (replace Rogue with phantom if you wish), but I wouldn't call this build imbalanced. I know you can add several mountains of baseless text here, but instead I suggest just waiting a month or two and requesting server stats to see TA popularity (spoiler: it won't be this much big).
I guess most of the bonuses of the class lends itself to rogues, rangers and swashbucklers. The latter being the one who would need it most. The other two I'm not sure need the boost. Rogues are already sitting pretty good since hellshop rolled in and rangers have always been decent/good depending on the enemy they face.
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Re: Thief Acrobat

Unread post by Steve »

IMHO...

Dash is not worthless. When you need to outrun most mobs, because of low-on-hp and no kits/heals, Dash is your Big Time Friend. Skill Focus Tumble or Escape Artist is very practical, especially if you are using One Weapon feat (synergy) or wish to rub-their-wizard-nose-in-it when getting Bigby'd by using EA to...get away.

Thief Acrobat is pretty stellar, actually, for 5 Levels. Knockdown Immunity is no joke on this Server.

I mean, consider a Swash 12 / TA 5 / Duelist 10 / Rogue 3 (or Monk 3) INT high. Or even Fighter 12 / Rogue 10 / TA 5 / Bodyguard 3 with STR high.

C'mon people...you must know that Endelyon is always putting OP PrCs into the game!!! :twisted:
Last edited by Steve on Sun Mar 24, 2019 11:47 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Thief Acrobat

Unread post by Rudolph »

Mmmh. To me it looks good, but not OP. Improved Knockdown seems pretty useless for Stealthers, DEXers, and INT-focused Swashbucklers and Springboard for pure Strength builds, so it's either one or the other in effective form or both very situationally. And then the class doesn't progress Sneak Attack or help with damage in any other way. I didn't realize immunity to knockdown is such a big deal, but may be wrong - have been playing mostly high STR builds lately, who are rarely knocked down for that reason. Just another opinion.
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Re: Thief Acrobat

Unread post by Sun Wukong »

Five level PRC I presume? And yes, there are a lot of mobs with high strength and knockdown. Knockdown is brutal in NWN2 as your character cannot do anything while on the ground and mobs tend to spam knockdown.

Oh and didn't Improved Knockdown grant +4 bonus, which is basically +8 strength. Base 13 strength rogue will have 21 strength... And while it might not trip Epic Rage Barbarian... Do imagine that squishy mage with strength of 8 or lower, the odds are in your favour.
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Re: Thief Acrobat

Unread post by izzul »

Sun Wukong wrote: Tue Mar 26, 2019 3:03 am Five level PRC I presume? And yes, there are a lot of mobs with high strength and knockdown. Knockdown is brutal in NWN2 as your character cannot do anything while on the ground and mobs tend to spam knockdown.

Oh and didn't Improved Knockdown grant +4 bonus, which is basically +8 strength. Base 13 strength rogue will have 21 strength... And while it might not trip Epic Rage Barbarian... Do imagine that squishy mage with strength of 8 or lower, the odds are in your favour.
btw, welcome back sun wukong, long time no see....

im still looking at what nice build to play TA, maybe phantom/TA sounds good?
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