GMW does not apply to Summons that are Unarmed?

[Steve]

Hello!
As it seems, Greater Magic Weapon cannot be cast/applied to Summons that are Unarmed fighters, or maybe have the Weapon: Creature feat for their unarmed attacks. It is at odds with how GMW does apply to Unarmed PCs, so I'm hoping there is just some oversight here on making sure the GMW applies to all forms of "weapon."

Yes?

Cheers.

[Ewe]

Magic Weapon and Magic Weapon, Greater are not supposed to work on unarmed unless it's a monk.

The SRD is really clear on this, RAW:

You can’t cast this spell on a natural weapon, such as an unarmed strike (instead, see magic fang). A monk’s unarmed strike is considered a weapon, and thus it can be enhanced by this spell.

[Steve]

Magic Weapon and Magic Weapon, Greater are not supposed to work on unarmed unless it's a monk.

The SRD is really clear on this, RAW:

You can’t cast this spell on a natural weapon, such as an unarmed strike (instead, see magic fang). A monk’s unarmed strike is considered a weapon, and thus it can be enhanced by this spell.

Right. But the BGTSCC wiki states GMW can be cast on Unarmed attacks: https://wiki.bgtscc.net/index.php?title ... n,_Greater

So is the issue then that some forms, such as the Qorrashi, should not have Creature Weapon but Unarmed feats?

[Ewe]

This isn’t how it is supposed to work. The wiki you linked talks about gloves not unarmed. I think that’s a house rule to let monks get magic weapon per the SRD. You’re supposed to use magic fang spells on nonmonk unarmed. I don’t believe our unarmed creatures are monks?

[Steve]

This isn’t how it is supposed to work. The wiki you linked talks about gloves not unarmed. I think that’s a house rule to let monks get magic weapon per the SRD. You’re supposed to use magic fang spells on nonmonk unarmed. I don’t believe our unarmed creatures are monks?

You have a good point. But I wouldn’t debate on Monk class, but instead if the being has Improved Unarmed Strike…because it IS possible to make a punchy non-Monk build.

Unless here the Rule in 3.5e is all non-PC unarmed melee fighters are to be considered Creature attacks w/ Proficiency, and Outsiders that punch are not technically Unarmed but Creature.

Though would any Humanoid mob that attacked with its fists NOT use Gloves/bracers?

[Steve]

As in: do Qorrashi have Natural Weapons then?

https://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbili ... ralWeapons

I guess they do!

And that must apply then to almost all non-weapon holding Summons.

[Ewe]

Your fist only counts as a weapon if you take monk. It’s a monk class feature. Gloves don’t actually exist in pnp like nwn2. So it’s a bit of a gray area. Gloves are not weapons.

Improved unarmed doesn’t give your fist weapon damage dice. Just prevents attacks of op.

A quasit’s arms aren’t weapons for magic weapon. You need magic fang for them.

[Steve]

Your fist only counts as a weapon if you take monk. It’s a monk class feature. Gloves don’t actually exist in pnp like nwn2. So it’s a bit of a gray area. Gloves are not weapons.

Improved unarmed doesn’t give your fist weapon damage dice. Just prevents attacks of op.

A quasit’s arms aren’t weapons for magic weapon. You need magic fang for them.

Explain this then, in context of this conversation:

Armed" Unarmed Attacks
Sometimes a character’s or creature’s unarmed attack counts as an armed attack. A monk, a character with the Improved Unarmed Strike feat, a spellcaster delivering a touch attack spell, and a creature with natural physical weapons all count as being armed.

https://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/actionsInCombat.htm

So it isn’t gloves or bracers that should “hold” a GMW spell, but if the mob/PC has Improved Unarmed Strike feat.

And my summons example is a Qorrashi, not a quasit. The latter have fists, not claws.

[Ewe]

In pnp gloves don’t grant unarmed damage stats. They are not a weapon type.

They are some minor exceptions like the spiked gauntlet, but we don’t have that item/mechanic in nwn.

This is an nwn engine thing.

For technical reasons I have to put the magic weapon on the gloves to allow monks to use it. In 3.5e that wouldn’t make sense. It’d instead go directly on the monk’s hand.

Nwn makes it confusing because you are misled that gloves are a 3.5e weapon type.

[Ewe]

The engine doesn’t create an object to store data on like effects for unarmed. So as a bit of a hack they store the effects on the hands object instead.

An unarmed object to hold effects should actually have been done. But wasn’t put into the engine.

This is true for material type rules as well. In 3.5e you’d use the monk feats for this on unarmed and not the material of the gloves.

[Steve]

But in my reading of it, from the SRD, it’s this type of “armed” unarmed attack, that really matters.

Such that the following are actually considered weapons(?) when attacking:

- monk
- Improved Unarmed Strike
- touch attack spell
- creature with natural physical weapons (fists??)

So these instances should be GMW-able.

Unless I’m just stretching the label of “armed” as meaning a weapon.

The amount of damage the fists/weapon shouldn’t matter here, just the EB bonus applied, or not.

[Ewe]

I refer you once again to the spell’s description:

You can’t cast this spell on a natural weapon, such as an unarmed strike (instead, see magic fang). A monk’s unarmed strike is considered a weapon, and thus it can be enhanced by this spell.

I don’t know how more clear it can be. It says you cannot cast it on unarmed stroke or natural weapons. With the only exception as monk unarmed.

[Steve]

Nonetheless, if a mob/monster fights unarmed, and said creatures unarmed “weapon” is actually a fist, it’s still (maybe always?) considered a Natural/Creature Weapon.

GMW not applicable to Natural Weapons is clear. That GMW should actually apply to any Being that has Improved Unarmed Stike remains unresolved (at least in the context of the NWN2 engine and BGTSCC).

[Ewe]

No it is resolved.

If improved unarmed strike was sufficient then the srd would just have written that instead of monk. As monks get that.

We are following the srd properly.

Except that we put enhancement on gloves instead of fists due to technical limitations. So we are a little more lenient with PCs than we should be.

[Steve]

No it is resolved.

If improved unarmed strike was sufficient then the srd would just have written that instead of monk. As monks get that.

We are following the srd properly.

Except that we put enhancement on gloves instead of fists due to technical limitations. So we are a little more lenient with PCs than we should be.

It seems there is just some laziness in some of the descriptions.

Because I’ve also shown that the SRD says there are “armed unarmed attacks” which become essentially weapons, and thus I’d argue capable of holding a GMW spell.