summons need more AC

[Rask]

Like across the board. For conjurer focus or summon focused Necros, the summons just fold like wet paper in epic areas because they are lucky if they can reach even 40 AC buffed. We could use about a 5 or so AC increase across the board for summons by the time a dedicated caster hits 25-30 level. They should at least be able to tank a little, since they also dont do a ton of damage either, the higher level 7 to 9 summons should have 40 to 45 AC after buffing at bare min, and even that is stretching it with how insanely high AB can get in epic areas.

[Steve]

Summons would also benefit from an natural +1 Regeneration.

But otherwise I wholeheartedly agree with this request!

[Ithilan]

Really depends on the build. Conjurors can be one man armies.

I dont think this is a universal issue at all, its a problem for arcane summoners and some others. But having mid 50s AC with solid AB, I find my current conjuror has no issues.

I think both the issues you describe are related to the type of conjuror, not a summoning issues per say. Which makes it a build question not a balance issue as I see it.

This was before I even hit 30.. my planar cohort is sitting on mid 40s and my elemental around the same.


In regards to the healing/regen, I think thats one of the few things that speak for a cleric conjuror and in this era where we are more about class identity than streamlining everything for everyone, id be quite opposed to it, unless you give clerics an animal companion viable darkfire spell also and so on.

[Steve]

I dont think this is a universal issue at all, its a problem for arcane summoners and some others. But having mid 50s AC with solid AB, I find my current conjuror has no issues.

Are theses stats for your actual Conjurer PC's AC and AB, or are they for a Summons? Is it a Cleric Summoner, or a Druid Summoner? Yes, Arcane summoners have it very different.

It is a balance issue if a dedicated Arcane Conjurer's summons are literally 10 points off from a Divine-based conjurer/summoners Summons.

[Ithilan]

I dont think this is a universal issue at all, its a problem for arcane summoners and some others. But having mid 50s AC with solid AB, I find my current conjuror has no issues.

Are theses stats for your actual Conjurer PC's AC and AB, or are they for a Summons? Is it a Cleric Summoner, or a Druid Summoner? Yes, Arcane summoners have it very different.

It is a balance issue if a dedicated Arcane Conjurer's summons are literally 10 points off from a Divine-based conjurer/summoners Summons.

That is for the summons, my casters AC and AB doesnt matter for this conversation as I see it

My Animal companion sits at 59 AC as shown above, my planar cohort at 46 AC and my elemental about 45 I want to say. That is with out casting recitation mind you, which improves it further.

Even spoke to Rask about this in the past, Cleric conjurors have a lot of tools to make it work, hence my comment about it being build related, more than conjurations in itself.

Edit: Well the arcane conjurors killing prowess is about 10 times that of the cleric in most cases, I think its a trade off, not a balance issue. Else I want extended haste and heroism for my summons too

2nd edit: its a cleric summoner Steve.

[Steve]

My Animal companion...

Animal Companion is different than summons from the Conjuration School of Magic. Yes, no, agreed?

Builds have something to do with it, but if the actual Summons from X Spell have a limitation, and the Type of Magic—here as in Arcane magic—has limitations to what is applicable/available to cast, then it's not a "build a Cleric/Divine build if you want superior summons..." but you're actually wanting to play an Arcane Conjurer (and have a specific spellbook).

EDIT: Greater Planar Binding summons AC, fully buffed, is average 38-40. You can add a few extra defenses on that, like Stoneskin, but in Epic Areas that equals wet noodle and very dead Greater Planar Binding.

[Ithilan]

My Animal companion...

Animal Companion is different than summons from the Conjuration School of Magic. Yes, no, agreed?

Builds have something to do with it, but if the actual Summons from X Spell have a limitation, and the Type of Magic—here as in Arcane magic—has limitations to what is applicable/available to cast, then it's not a "build a Cleric/Divine build if you want superior summons..." but you're actually wanting to play an Arcane Conjurer (and have a specific spellbook).

Agreed, that animal companions are a category of their own.

My point however is that it is build related, because you can make a dedicated conjuror that can solo half the servers bosses without using a single consumable. So why should the undedicated be buffed?

Do we just want every caster to dip in to Thaumaturge, because you can with a little investment get a power house companion thats on par with bringing a party member? Whilst flinging necromancy spells and IGMS left and right? Or is it fair you have to dedicate to that playstyle entirely? I have my opinion of course, but thats not really what the topic was about.

Do summons need more AC? I dont think so. I think you trade off solid AC on summons, to do other things, things you can not readily add to the conjuror builds that do not have these issues. So its a build question, not summons baseline being bad or having too low AC.

[Steve]

My point however is that it is build related, because you can make a dedicated conjuror that can solo half the servers bosses without using a single consumable. So why should the undedicated be buffed?

I'm playing a dedicated Conjurer right now, with Epic Spell Focus Conjuration + Thaumaturge PrC. Tell me what Bosses I'm supposed to easily solo, and I'll go there and tell you how well it went.

[Ithilan]

So am I, and I have no issues on my character, she blasts through things more easily than most builds I have. But lets not make this subjective about tactics and playstyle, I think that is a big factor.

Bottomline for me is that my summons have proven able to tank a lot of the bosses on the server, that my fighters do not really enjoy fighting. Including the balor at grey peaks, so inherently are summons bad with too low AC? Not from my experiences, but I wonder how many displacements you would cast on your summons, how much mitigation and buffs?

The way I see it, its a question of "I want to do other things and ignore my summons" which is not really how I play it. Because if you dedicate to the summons, theres more than a few tricks, even as an arcane conjuror, which I think would have a greater boss success against anything that doesn't get blown up by positive damage.

So should summons be buffed? Generally I would say no, their AC is fine, for what the player wants out of them with optimization or not, the one area I will completely claim ignorance on, is undead summons. Since that is not something I dabble in, I wouldnt know if they are so inferior as to be unviable, but summons in general are not, they are build subjective, like everything else.

[Steve]

So am I, and I have no issues on my character, she blasts through things more easily than most builds I have. But lets not make this subjective about tactics and playstyle, I think that is a big factor.

Again, is your Conjurer a Divine or Arcane caster? Is it that the Divine spellbook can better buff Summons overall then? It does come off that you ARE saying just "git gud" with how to play a dedicated Conjurer.

I'm still waiting for your list of Server Bosses that I should be able to solo with my Arcane conjurer.

[Ithilan]

So am I, and I have no issues on my character, she blasts through things more easily than most builds I have. But lets not make this subjective about tactics and playstyle, I think that is a big factor.

Again, is your Conjurer a Divine or Arcane caster? Is it that the Divine spellbook can better buff Summons overall then? It does come off that you ARE saying just "git gud" with how to play a dedicated Conjurer.

I'm still waiting for your list of Server Bosses that I should be able to solo with my Arcane conjurer.

I did post in my original response, that im a cleric summoner. And I am not advocating some git gud approach, im saying that is build subjective yes, divine classes have better buffs and sustain for their summons, arcane summoners have more fire power and offense for their enemies. Hence the trade off.

But you can play around things, say etherealness in to a boss, shadow sim the boss, let the summons and your arsenal nuke it, im pretty sure I can make an arcane conjuror that can solo bosses even easier than a divine, because of the spellbook. But I cant get the same summon sustain over time, that a divine can.

Trade offs.

And I just name dropped a pretty nasty boss to solo, I think you can imagine from that, what else a cleric conjuror can murder if the Balor is on the list

[Aspect of Sorrow]

Given PvE ceilings are coming down there is no need to buff the summons further. Making them function near peer to armored melee player characters for tanking is also not something we'd want in the PW. That said, my ESFC Thaum soloed the balor with two Hound Archons. Send them off, counterspell the Balor mords. Once the mords are over reup the stoneskin DR on them.

[Steve]

Given PvE ceilings are coming down there is no need to buff the summons further. Making them function near peer to armored melee player characters for tanking is also not something we'd want in the PW. That said, my ESFC Thaum soloed the balor with two Hound Archons. Send them off, counterspell the Balor mords. Once the mords are over reup the stoneskin DR on them.

ETAo that ceiling reduction?

Hound Archons are kinda the best choice, aren’t they. So limited….

Ithilan pointed it out, it’s about sustain (ability). Ethereal zerging is a thing I know about. I forget how much playing on BGTSCC is about OOC gaming the game.

[Steve]

So why should the undedicated be buffed?

Or is it fair you have to dedicate to that playstyle entirely?
[/quote]

Yes, I think it’s fair that if one plays a character on a build that is a focused specialist, their power/profession should be far above par.

BGTSCC is historically notorious for “balancing” conservatively with an idea that players should “struggle” or “earn it” be battling mobs/bosses/mechanics that are overtuned because of a select few Classes that are never degraded.

So on one hand there is balance, but that left hand ain’t talkin to da right.

If PvE power is going to be reduced, okay, that’s kinda the same as a universal buff that one can argue is better because it benefits everyone and every build. But that’s bed talked about as an option for what, 3 years now?

[Ithilan]

Given PvE ceilings are coming down there is no need to buff the summons further. Making them function near peer to armored melee player characters for tanking is also not something we'd want in the PW. That said, my ESFC Thaum soloed the balor with two Hound Archons. Send them off, counterspell the Balor mords. Once the mords are over reup the stoneskin DR on them.

ETAo that ceiling reduction?

Hound Archons are kinda the best choice, aren’t they. So limited….

Ithilan pointed it out, it’s about sustain (ability). Ethereal zerging is a thing I know about. I forget how much playing on BGTSCC is about OOC gaming the game.

Yeah this is really unfortunate and true, but I think it goes for all games with persistent worlds, you bring a certain amount of game knowledge or OOC information to an encounter, it increases your success chance dramatically.

Ethereal zering and utilizing silence and mitigation as best possible will see your summons live through things a head on approach wont. But that goes for most builds I find.

On the whole balancing and build thing, im not certain what to say. I have hoped PvE would be scaled to something more reasonable for many years, but we kept adding dungeons that required niche or a group, steering away from a more balanced and fun experience imo. variety is great, but having to make power builds to go through it is not. So im really happy to hear that theres plans to tune things a bit better than our current state of things.

And what AoS said is where I am coming from as well in regards to summons, we dont want them to be a substitute for an actual players build in terms of their power. Which is why I think they are fine as is, but the scaling of content we face is not.