Uncanny Dodge as a General Feat

[SandTrout]

This came up in the Discord, so I decided to make it a formal proposal.

Concern: Due to NWN2 jankiness, PCs frequently find themselves under the "flat footed" state improperly (relative to context), causing them to loose a significant chunk of AC (as dodge and dex bonuses are removed). Due to this, Uncanny Dodge is considered a necessary feat for any high-dex or unarmored build, and valuable for absolutely everyone else. This value is to the point that many build will frequenly 3 or 4 dip classes for the sole purpose of gaining Uncanny Dodge (and/or evasion, which I will not be directly addressing). This causes all sorts of additional constraints for builds while providing relatively little for many build concepts.

Proposal: Add Uncanny Dodge as a General feat that can be taken by any character that meets the prerequisites of 13 Dexterity and 13 Wisdom

Main expected effect: Builds no longer need to fit a Rogue, Barbarian, or some other PRC dip into their build in order to acquire a fundamental tool for surviving coding flaws imposed on the game. This removes 1 class that might be considered "necessary" for viability from some builds, and thus allows players to multiclass less (and also potentially take less multiclassing penalties). The requirements of 13 WIS and DEX encourage some builds away from min-maxing via a Wisdom dump or 12 base DEX, and thus encouraging more balanced builds in at least some cases. This also allows certain odd exceptions to which base classes get UD (Monk and Phantom stand out as missing this feat for no particular reason) the option of either paying the feat tax to patch their defenses, or multiclass as many currently do.

This is, strictly speaking, a limited buff to certain builds, but aside from perhaps Archer builds (which probably want to take Shadowdancer anyways) it mainly gives players more flexibility to build to their character how they want without needing to include inappropriate class inclusions. Due to other features gained by dipping into classes like Rogue and Shadowdancer, as well as general feat starvation in many builds, I don't expect a tremendous number of builds to take advantage of this, but it should be a relatively low resource change.

[Rinzler]

I agree that Uncanny Dodge effectively being mandatory due to nwn2’s initiative bug is annoying, but I’m not sure the above proposal is the appropriate route of solving the issue.

Gut reaction is that those requirements seem low.

[Ewe]

I don't understand what you mean by "coding flaws."

I also don't understand what dex builds you're making that don't get uncanny dodge already. There's already 13 ways to get it :
Assassin 2, Barbarian 2, Breach Gnome 2, Dwarven Defender 2, Fist of the Forest 2, Guild Thief 2, Hunter 3, Man-at-Arms 17, Rogue 4, Shadow Dancer 2, Sacred Fist 6, Shifter 7, Air Domain 1.

[Garnet]

I don't usually chime in on these sort of topics, but I agree with Ewe here in that there is already many ways to get this.

Making it 13wis/dex, I'm imagining a Paladin or cleric in full plate dodging with the same adeptness as a rogue in light clothing. Choose 13 dexterity, get a +3 dexterity item (or use that cat spell that gives dexterity) and wearing mithril pull plate I think would be a new standard.

I feel like diversity is the beauty of the classes, and blurring the lines is going to be blending away the uniqueness of the choices/sacrifices players have made.

it mainly gives players more flexibility to build to their character how they want without needing to include inappropriate class inclusions

It's okay to have character weaknesses, and I think its by good design that not all combinations or feats are achievable (which makes me think of the reason why we have requirements for many of the advanced classes).

[SandTrout]

I don't understand what you mean by "coding flaws."

Durring combat, Initiative will occasionally reset, and place the character into the Flatfooted state until they make their first attack.

I also don't understand what dex builds you're making that don't get uncanny dodge already. There's already 13 ways to get it :
Assassin 2, Barbarian 2, Breach Gnome 2, Dwarven Defender 2, Fist of the Forest 2, Guild Thief 2, Hunter 3, Man-at-Arms 17, Rogue 4, Shadow Dancer 2, Sacred Fist 6, Shifter 7, Air Domain 1.

A lot of pure classes that use Dex as a primary element of their defense don't get it. Phantom and Monk, as I called out specifically, don't get UD unless they cross-class into something else, with no particular guarantee that it will make sense with the character build or concept.

A swashbuckler based build also does not get UD natively, including classic WM/Duelist builds, Dread Pirate builds, or Dervish

Granted, they aren't exactly hurting for defense, but a duelist build needs to dip something for UD, even though dodge AC is core to their defenses

Any Fighter Archer build essentially needs to dip into something that doesn't fit their core build.

A lot of builds that for which UD is extremely important just presumptively add the necessary Dip to take advantage of it.

[Ewe]

I'll take a look at the initiative reset bug and see if it can be better characterized and properly fixed. If there's a real issue there, I'd rather address it directly than apply a band-aid like giving everyone Uncanny Dodge.

If the alternative is that every build takes Uncanny by default, then we've effectively erased the concept of flat-footed. At that point, why have the mechanic at all?

[mrm3ntalist]

Uncanny Dodge wouldn’t feel like a must-have feat if so many new or reworked feats (like Combat Expertise) didn’t grant dodge AC. So yes, by coding everything as dodge AC, you’ve essentially forced everyone to take Uncanny Dodge in their builds and " effectively erased the concept of flat-footed"

[Ewe]

I will work to address that with engine mods in the future, like we did with Monk/Ninja/FoF AC being innate (untyped). There's no reason expertise can't also be modded to innate (like it is in vanilla).

Just for technical reasons, dodge AC is way easier to work with/mod so that is more of a placeholder until an engine mod can be crafted (which is far more involved).

[mrm3ntalist]

Changes like that will help for certain.

[Steve]

Uncanny Dodge wouldn’t feel like a must-have feat if so many new or reworked feats (like Combat Expertise) didn’t grant dodge AC. So yes, by coding everything as dodge AC, you’ve essentially forced everyone to take Uncanny Dodge in their builds and " effectively erased the concept of flat-footed"

M3nt nailed it. CE to Dodge AC drastically changed the need/no-need for Uncanny Dodge.

Also, any build has is a Wild Shape, Shifter Shape, or Polymorph mechanics also needs Uncanny Dodge, because the supposed "Natural" AC of a Shape is considered Dodge AC as well (and it should be Natural, of it that wouldn't then stack with actual Natural AC buffs/bonuses, then Untyped could work).

[SandTrout]

If the Intiative reset bug can be fixed and AC catagories addressed, that would be a much better solution. I have no idea how much devolopment resources that would take.

[wurdpass]

I will work to address that with engine mods in the future, like we did with Monk/Ninja/FoF AC being innate (untyped). There's no reason expertise can't also be modded to innate (like it is in vanilla).

Just for technical reasons, dodge AC is way easier to work with/mod so that is more of a placeholder until an engine mod can be crafted (which is far more involved).

May I ask a related question?

Is Fist of the Forest AC untyped? In the Wiki it specifically calls this bonus “Dodge” AC.

Additionally, the untyped Monk Dodge AC - is that only the Wisdom based AC or also the class-ability AC bonus (a flat bonus that reaches +6 at level 30).

Thank you!

If I am able to, I would try to update the Wiki with the appropriate answers.

[Ewe]

We have the ability to add new Innate AC (what you guys are calling "untyped") feats and features.

All of the below are currently Innate AC features on bgtscc (which may have historically been "dodge"):

Everyone gets a base 10 Innate AC.

The only Innate AC feats we currently have setup are:
+ FEAT_LUCK_OF_HEROES +1
+ FEAT_CONSTRUCT_UPGRADE_AC +3 (Note: I don't think this feat is possible for a player to obtain legally.)
(We have the ability to add more here, but we currently are not.)

All of the below are disabled if polymorphed/shapeshifted, holding a shield, or encumbered:

If wearing cloth or no armor only, the higher of either:
+ The 1 AC per 5 monk levels + Monk Wisdom AC
OR
+ The 1 AC per 5 phantom levels + The Phantom level capped Wisdom AC

If wearing cloth or no armor:
+ Fist of the Forest con modifier (uncapped)

If wearing cloth, no, or light armor only:
+ The sacred fist +1 AC at levels 1, 5, and 10

[Ewe]

We also modified the engine to allow customizing Base Natural AC.

I don't have a complete list but we gave this to Armor Skin II-X, Battlerager, and Acolyte of Skin.

[wurdpass]

We also modified the engine to allow customizing Base Natural AC.

I don't have a complete list but we gave this to Armor Skin II-X, Battlerager, and Acolyte of Skin.

Thank you for your help! This is very nice clarification.

If I understand correctly this increase to base natural AC also 'stacks with everything', right?

Does its exclusion from the list mean that Armor Skin 1 does not stack e.g. with a Barkskin potion