Paladin Detect Evil

[Mork]

So Paladins do not have Detect Evil ability yet as I've recently learned it's possible to get "Fall Warning" for literally exchanging 2 lines of dialogue with evil character. I've already send lengthy response to DM team of what I think about it so here I'd just request addition of this mechanic.

Sources:
Player’s Handbook (3.5e), p. 44 – Paladin Class Features


Details:

Type: (Sp) — Spell-like ability, not an actual spell.
Frequency: At will — unlimited use.
Action: Same as the detect evil spell — a standard action to activate, then concentration up to 10 rounds.
Caster Level: Equals the paladin’s class level.
No need for spell slots — works even if the paladin doesn’t yet have spellcasting

Summary:

Range: 60 ft., cone-shaped emanation.
Concentration: Up to 10 rounds (you learn more each round you focus):
1st round: Presence or absence of evil auras.
2nd round: Number of evil auras and the strength of the strongest one.
3rd round: Strength and location of each aura.
Aura strength depends on the creature’s HD and alignment, or the power of an evil spell/item.

Without this ability Paladin has to rely on another player for PM about Evil alignment of character he interacts with. It happened to me on couple occasions but most players choose not to share.

[Aspect of Sorrow]

Very early on in the PW this mechanic existed and was abused rather deeply.
It's removal then sparked the smite-check behavior.
Since then it's usually the word of mouth, dossiers, etc, that are one of the main means of learning about a character which has lead to more roleplay than before as it permits team evil to be able to invest in their character before someone just button mashes a predominantly OOC mechanic and outs them out the gate.

This is a very fast way of pushing evil players to require neutral mechanics just to keep cover.

[Goat]

If you used detect evil in Sshamath the place would of lit up like a Christmas's tree and as a paladin you would of had a heart attack. It wasn't about having two dialog with an evil person. It was where you were at.

Sshamath is not a neutral city. It never has been. It's true evil at best, unless you somehow ignored the drow, illthid, beholder, slaves, etc. just because they aren't lloth for dominant doesn't make it any less evil. Maybe less chaotic.

It could be an issue if your running around 'knowingly' with evil for a long period of time, but that wasn't the case here. And you didn't know in this case either. Talking/speaking to evil does happen. As a paladin it's going too. Some are unknown and we wouldn't punish just because of that. Detect evil has a metay issue as AoS said as well .

Just clarifying that though, in case you misunderstood the reply.

[Steve]

What is a Paladin doing in Sshamath anyway? Asking for a friend....

[Mork]

If you used detect evil in Sshamath the place would of lit up like a Christmas's tree

Yea If only a Paladin had that option...

It was where you were at.

Nowhere in books I've found any mention of possible Paladin Fall for just vising a place.
Simply being in Sshamath (or the Nine Hells, or an evil temple) is not an evil act.

What is a Paladin doing in Sshamath anyway? Asking for a friend....

Buying Tendril of Kossuth Whip - Item by all appearances aligned with Neutral Primordial. No idea why isn't it available in Gullykin temple.
Also studying drow and investigating Fishmen after their appearance around Winding Waters. All perfectly reasonable things for Paladin to do.

Several false assumptions were made during the 2 day process that led to the “Divine Warning” decision. I only wish the same attention to detail had been applied here as in my 67 day long biography approval process that's still ongoing.

[MissClick]

Nowhere in books I've found any mention of possible Paladin Fall for just vising a place.
Simply being in Sshamath (or the Nine Hells, or an evil temple) is not an evil act.

It is my understanding that if a paladin willingly places themself in a location where they are knowingly confront with actions that violate their oaths (torture, necromancy, slavery, etc) and they do not react in the strict manner those oaths dictate, they are at risk. This reasoning is why you will not find Paladin in places like Soubar, because they cannot bear witness to these evil acts and do nothing; whether due to their own inaction, local law, or the possibility that they might be otherwise forced into suicidal scenario (similarly, divine followers of Selune and Kelemvor would not suffer the presence of werewolves or undead).

It is not necessarily being in that location, but failing to act in response to the wickedness they've perceived in that place.

[Mork]

Nowhere in books I've found any mention of possible Paladin Fall for just vising a place.
Simply being in Sshamath (or the Nine Hells, or an evil temple) is not an evil act.

It is my understanding that if a paladin willingly places themself in a location where they are knowingly confront with actions that violate their oaths (torture, necromancy, slavery, etc) and they do not react in the strict manner those oaths dictate, they are at risk. This reasoning is why you will not find Paladin in places like Soubar, because they cannot bear witness to these evil acts and do nothing; whether due to their own inaction, local law, or the possibility that they might be otherwise forced into suicidal scenario (similarly, divine followers of Selune and Kelemvor would not suffer the presence of werewolves or undead).

It is not necessarily being in that location, but failing to act in response to the wickedness they've perceived in that place.

That's nothing different than Paladin walking around Baldurs Gate which has places like Thay Enclave and Port area with plenty of evil stuff going on.
It's cause paladin’s code requires that he respects legitimate authority

A paladin’s code requires that she respects legitimate authority

Being literal quote from Player’s Handbook (3.5), p. 44–45.

I'd argue since Detect Evil was removed then maybe an information about status of certain places/characters should come first from DM-s.
Then again historical campaigns were happening in literal Hells with plenty of involvement from Paladins yet not one has fallen simply from being there. Being somewhere is not an evil act!

It all feels absurd. There's been literally human sacrifices happening in Baldurs Gate very center. Should all Paladins visiting it also get fall warning?

[Steve]

Sshamath is not a neutral city. It never has been. It's true evil at best...

...a paladin will never knowingly associate with evil characters, nor will she continue an association with someone who consistently offends her moral code.

[Mork]

...a paladin will never knowingly associate with evil characters, nor will she continue an association with someone who consistently offends her moral code.

Couple things here:
1. Knowingly. I did not receive from DM any information about any city or character being evil.
2. Two lines of dialogue cannot be called association. We didn't go camping together. It was basically "Hello", "Nice wares you have here". Those wares being Whip aligned to Kosstuh - neutral primordial.

[RedLancer]

That's nothing different than Paladin walking around Baldurs Gate which has places like Thay Enclave and Port area with plenty of evil stuff going on.
It's cause paladin’s code requires that he respects legitimate authority

It's very different. One is a lawful neutral city that has some residents who are evil, and if your paladin were around the port and witnessed evil things happening, they would be compelled to intervene. The other is an evil city that promotes evil things, and your paladin is going to be witnessing evil things and is compelled to intervene.

A paladin's code requires that she respects legitimate authority.

An authority that protects, promotes, or engages in evil behaviors is an illegitimate authority as the paladin sees it.

Unless you're there to undermine the evil face that runs the place, you don't have business down there.

[blazerules]

Ngl I feel like Sshamath being an evil city seems like the first conclusion anyone would ever come to even just considering its in the Underdark. Doesn't seem like you'd need to be told this.

I do wish we had detect evil, it seemed like a policy issue more than a mechanical one. It makes no sense for a paladin to go around detect evil on everyone or smiting. If anything they should fall for such horrid behaviour.

But I can also see a lot of issues. Detect evil should mostly be left to a spell paladins can only do with DM supervision like some other spells that can only be cast with DMs present. Well, ICly cast

[Mork]

To be honest I'm a bit frustrated with how many people claim "it's so obvious"
I don't care. It was absolutely not obvious to me. Provide hints of world-building cause nothing evil ever happened to me in Sshamath neither on my Paladin nor even my necromancer drow that I played there 5 years ago. Maybe don't expect players to ignore other PC behavior when every single act they preform is higly lawful, cuddly good or slightly rude at best.

Want to keep up the narrative over how obvious it is instead of providing guidance and world-building tips go for it. Just don't get surprised result is terrorized players paranoid over every single interaction they make cause "OH SO OBVIOUZZ GIT GUD NOOB"...

[TheDwarfGristle]

To be honest I'm a bit frustrated with how many people claim "it's so obvious"
I don't care. It was absolutely not obvious to me. Provide hints of world-building cause nothing evil ever happened to me in Sshamath neither on my Paladin nor even my necromancer drow that I played there 5 years ago. Maybe don't expect players to ignore other PC behavior when every single act they preform is higly lawful, cuddly good or slightly rude at best.

Want to keep up the narrative over how obvious it is instead of providing guidance and world-building tips go for it. Just don't get surprised result is terrorized players paranoid over every single interaction they make cause "OH SO OBVIOUZZ GIT GUD NOOB"...

I think it is obvious in the sense that humans tell their children drow and orcs are evil. The underdark, by definition, is evil in all stories people tell each other.

While I understand your sentiment of "nothing evil ever happened to me in Sshamath neither on my Paladin nor even my necromancer", I think that is a limitation of the game engine. But otherwise, no evil happening to an openly practicing necromancer might in that same vein be seen as a sign. If such evil can exist there unhindered, it's a sign of an evil place.

If you look at what you see, I can fully understand the standpoint that it isn't obvious. Because, if you look at it that way, it probably isn't.

But from a world building perspective, drow are evil. Illithids are evil (and they definitely look it too). They are the boogeymen of this world. The underdark is evil, and filled with horrors. Those are the Forgotten Realms' truths in the same way you'd know in the real world not to try and hug a bear, or a pack of wolves.

(( This is some heavily opinionated information, trying to bridge a gap between understandings. I do not make the rules, nor should anyone take my words as truth. Just hoping to create some understanding ))

[selhan]

Sounds like we need a script where Evil Npcs attack Good Alignments and vice versa ! Might help with the meta and godmod!

[renshouj]

To be honest I'm a bit frustrated with how many people claim "it's so obvious"
I don't care. It was absolutely not obvious to me. Provide hints of world-building cause nothing evil ever happened to me in Sshamath neither on my Paladin nor even my necromancer drow that I played there 5 years ago. Maybe don't expect players to ignore other PC behavior when every single act they preform is higly lawful, cuddly good or slightly rude at best.

Want to keep up the narrative over how obvious it is instead of providing guidance and world-building tips go for it. Just don't get surprised result is terrorized players paranoid over every single interaction they make cause "OH SO OBVIOUZZ GIT GUD NOOB"...

There are not only "hints" of worldbuilding, but it is very in your face. There are slaves and slavers, mindflayers out and about, a beholder, duergar, evil outsiders and evil creatures, a big temple to Lolth, and a bunch of drow... I understand it wasnt obvious to you because you didnt know that all the above meant very clearly that its an evil place, but the "hints" are there, very very there.