Powerbuild 3 Level Rule

[Eral'ai]

If you look over the campaign setting for 3.0, or books beyond that, yes. Many NPC's are multiclassed, even those who are -not- epic level. It is, as I said, how the 3.0 and 3.5 rules are designed. They were designed with multiclassing in mind, unlike the first and second edition rules. One could say it was done this way so WoTC could produce reams of tripe in the form of Supplements for prestige classes... But, there you have it.
Out of curiosity, I just pulled out a few books to look them over. It seems very few NPC's over the 10-15 range are not multiclassed, or are not something weird... like a centaur, a werewolf, an ogre, or some such.
Also, as far as Elminster, don't consider him totally one in a million. Sure, he's a chosen of Mystra. Otherwise, he's no better than any other epic wizard. Such is the way of the game.

Yeah I see. When I played tabletop our campaigns were totally 100% DM created, so lore wasn't used much other than for what the monsters were notorious for.

[Simian]

And before 3.0 and 3.5, you had your Fighter/Thieves, Mage/Thieves, Fighter/Mage/Clerics, Cleric/Mage/Thieves... etc.

And honestly, multi-classing rocked, those single class characters were often nothing but sticks stuck in the mud. Though, my memorye does get bit fuzzy on how it all actually worked...

[Katzenjammer]

Usually only the "gimped" races were heavily multiclassed though. Humans, who had unlimited levels to play with, had their own beatdown handed to them in the form of the famous "Dual Classing" rules.
In PnP, you generally have one DM, and he is in charge. In my own PnP games over the years, I would not require nor allow half combinations that are on this server. But, that is the major difference between PnP and a NWN2 PW.

[Eral'ai]

Usually only the "gimped" races were heavily multiclassed though. Humans, who had unlimited levels to play with, had their own beatdown handed to them in the form of the famous "Dual Classing" rules.
In PnP, you generally have one DM, and he is in charge. In my own PnP games over the years, I would not require nor allow half combinations that are on this server. But, that is the major difference between PnP and a NWN2 PW.

Yeah powerbuilding, while not cheating is similar in effect that it ruins a part of the game. Having a weakness makes it fun and challenging. DnD traditionally isn't won, but you win DnD when you make a class that cannot be stopped unless the DM decides that umpteen Balors with HIPS assaults the party while they sleep.

[kellendril]

The other thing is, if you look at the builds of those individual character of legend, each had an RP reason for their classes and levels. Drizzt, for example, was not trained as a ranger until he reached the surface, so he had several levels of fighter due to his training in the UD.

That's how I would like to see things go here, why not base ALL class choices on RP? Why does it have to be a "build" to max out potential all the time?

I hate seeing all the "check out my new uber build..OMGZORS!1!!11!1!" threads here, to be perfectly honest, because its a symptom of a greater issue than is being presented here in this thread, IMHO. I've seen some great roleplay here, and I've seen way too many people just out to hack n slash their way to lvl 30 so they can munchkin out their next great build and do it again. An RP server should be about RPing your character concept, not building the most powerful character you can and winning" the game..

[Kaden Asen]

eah I agree on that point. More incentive to stay one single class in my opinion if you want to stick to lore. Even if you do go solid blocks of classes it can still make little sense. Such as a Paladin/Sorceror. Sure, you can justify it slightly by being a "Paladin of Mystra" but everyone knows why you did it.

Actually. . .no, there -are- solid back stories that -developed- into that class combo. My "Dirty power build" character started out a a cleric 28/1 rogue. . .and in time became a "Paladin of Mystra"

The build complaints are. . .comical at best, a guy I knew summed it up once

"Building is the same as head shots. .Those who can will, those who can't complain"

[Simian]

It doesn't help much to have a great role-playing concept when your "NWN2" option is limited to nothing but getting crushed to goo.

[Rainbow Prism]

The other thing is, if you look at the builds of those individual character of legend, each had an RP reason for their classes and levels. Drizzt, for example, was not trained as a ranger until he reached the surface, so he had several levels of fighter due to his training in the UD.

That's how I would like to see things go here, why not base ALL class choices on RP? Why does it have to be a "build" to max out potential all the time?.

Drizzt was a freak of nature. I suspect that he had a Perfect Two Weapon Fighting when he was born.

[mute83]

to get a little back on topic

It is also, still easyer to get to level 20, then it is to get to level 30. And with the number of people on the server, and with how long it has been up, it is only natural there are going to become more and more level 30's.
Have you tried to send your build to a DM and get it approved? I know they used to approve some builds this way, depending on the build, and from what i have gotten from some staff posts, they can still get approved this way

[muffinFBSL]

The rule will not be changed. The rule will not be waived. It has been in place for at -least- two years now, probalby three. Rather than cluttering up the forums with yet another pointless thread, why not PM the DM staff and we'll tell you the same thing these people have been saying?

I don't know, I guess I just wanted more intelligent responses. Thanks for proving my point though, this rule has been on the server for 3 years, and the server has changed a ton in those 3 years. How can a rule like this remain constant in an evolving server?

I think what everyone is missing still, is that the rule is not meant to keep you from taking levels at certain times. I know it has become that, and I guess I don't care anymore because apparently the rule won't be changed, but the rule is not meant to do that. It was level 20 to ensure that you actually end up with 3 levels in all your classes to avoid 1 level dips. Not being able to take levels until later as in my case for example is... a byproduct. Whoever made the rule in the first place knows it. There is nothing cheap or conniving about taking 21 Ranger levels and then 9 new class levels. It isn't power building, it's just playing. But because the rule made so long ago happens to objurgate that, it is being vigorously defended and upheld. Really people, I can't take 21 Ranger levels and then stop taking Ranger levels because it is powerbuilding? That doesn't make any sense.

[bigcrank]

Here are the actual server rules. The relevant section is cut and pasted below.

"3. Powerbuild rule: You need to have at least three (3) levels in each of your classes by level twenty (20). If you are in violation of this rule, contact a DM so your character can be fixed. You are allowed to take new classes after level twenty, however you need to inform a DM about your intended level progression."

It explicitly allows new classes to be added after level 20, provided a DM is informed about the level progression.

[AlphaCentaur]

While I generally agree with muffin's opinions and views, I have to disagree here. I don't like anyone telling me what I can and cannot do with my characters, but the powerbuilding rule is a necessary evil in my opinion, since it stops players like me from being tempted to abuse the system. And believe me, when given total freedom, I will powerbuild and mix classes in ways that would make hardcore roleplayers vomit (whether the builds I make actually are good or not is entirely besides the point). Deep gnome druid/monk/duelist using wildshape is an example I give you. I consider myself to be a responsible player and roleplayer, so I wouldn't try any of that nonsense in a roleplay server even if I were allowed, but I like the fact that there is a rule such as this in place because some people just won't police themselves, unfortunately.

That being said, I can't help thinking that all those speaking out against multiclassing, class dipping, character building and optimisation should put up a sign saying "we're the one-sided hardcore roleplay militia, stand and deliver". What's so wrong with being able to combine abilities from classes in an effective way? In real life won't an intelligent person try to maximise their assets? All those people who learn to work jobs that are in high demand do it because they want the best for themselves. Are they powerbuilders? I can't even begin to explain how I dislike this attitude. If you want to play your characters like that, I respect you for that. But please, don't go saying that those who don't do it are somehow in the wrong here, and missing the point of D&D. The game allows for both playstyles, and both are equally valid. In fact, D&D source books usually offer tips about classes explaining why an adventurer would pick that class because of its benefits.

As long as people roleplay their characters and refrain from deep gnomes with levels in druid, monk and duelist, it's all good. This is a game, and it's meant to be entertaining. Live and let live.

Edit:

The build complaints are. . .comical at best, a guy I knew summed it up once

"Building is the same as head shots. .Those who can will, those who can't complain"

While not always the case, of course, there is at least some measure of truth to this. I remember when good Counter Strike players popped heads one after the other because they were very skillful, some clueless people would invariably start accusing them of cheating.

[mute83]

The rule will not be changed. The rule will not be waived. It has been in place for at -least- two years now, probalby three. Rather than cluttering up the forums with yet another pointless thread, why not PM the DM staff and we'll tell you the same thing these people have been saying?

I don't know, I guess I just wanted more intelligent responses. Thanks for proving my point though, this rule has been on the server for 3 years, and the server has changed a ton in those 3 years. How can a rule like this remain constant in an evolving server?

I think what everyone is missing still, is that the rule is not meant to keep you from taking levels at certain times. I know it has become that, and I guess I don't care anymore because apparently the rule won't be changed, but the rule is not meant to do that. It was level 20 to ensure that you actually end up with 3 levels in all your classes to avoid 1 level dips. Not being able to take levels until later as in my case for example is... a byproduct. Whoever made the rule in the first place knows it. There is nothing cheap or conniving about taking 21 Ranger levels and then 9 new class levels. It isn't power building, it's just playing. But because the rule made so long ago happens to objurgate that, it is being vigorously defended and upheld. Really people, I can't take 21 Ranger levels and then stop taking Ranger levels because it is powerbuilding? That doesn't make any sense.

so everyone else is stupid or cant come with a clever response?... maybe its YOU, that is... And it has been statet in the past that it was to prevent one from taking f.x. the last to SD levels at 29-30 as that is so much harder to gain, then 19-20.
And have you even bothered to PM a DM and see if they give your build an ok?
and as alpha said, it is needed, you seem to really be the only one with a problem with it, or one of the few

[muffinFBSL]

so everyone else is stupid or cant come with a clever response?... maybe its YOU, that is... And it has been statet in the past that it was to prevent one from taking f.x. the last to SD levels at 29-30 as that is so much harder to gain, then 19-20.
And have you even bothered to PM a DM and see if they give your build an ok?
and as alpha said, it is needed, you seem to really be the only one with a problem with it, or one of the few

You know, I started this thread with an open mind until someone started scolding me, so now it is just about being right. You're right. It is easier to take SD levels at 29 and 30 than 19 and 20. But that person will be getting their SD levels eventually. If they don't, good for them. What kind of power builder are they if they're only level 28? As long as they take the SD levels on 29 and 30, it's just being a conscious builder. They will have 3 levels in all of their classes. The reason that 29 and 30 SD used to be a problem... is because you most likely were not going to get there! Now, with all of the new areas, you will! If you were the kind of person who got a level 20 character before, you can probably get a 30 character now fairly easily. I haven't PMd a DM about this one yet because I still feel guilt about the 6 or 7 other epic level build requests I've made. I thought this would be an easier solution because it makes sense to now alter the rule, but I guess it wasn't all that easy...

[Stomphoof]

Quick Question:

If I wanted to go 20 Swashbuckler / 10 Duelist, do I have to take 3 Duelist levels BEFORE I hit level 20? Just curious.