WARLOCKS!

[Hope]

I would love that! I've been hoping for a Meph choice as your Deity since I started on here... Just make it so its not warlocks only though. Some of us are non-warlocks bound to an Archduke....

[Throne of Blood]

I think what should be implemented here is the entities that would allow pacts and their information much like when you select a deity to worship.

Only a few entities should be listed for each kind of pact or PrC available. We add a limited amount of entities that would grant pacts such as Asmodeus/Mephistopheles (infernal pact) Demogorgon/Graz'zt(Dark pact), Titania, oberron (fey pact), etc...

An entity or number of entities for each kind of pact, which limits the choices but gives each pact making warlock a focus knowing who is giving them their "gifts" and what alignments and types of pacts they represent. DM's would also know this and can react accordingly or observe the behavior of the warlock much how we evaluate holy classes following tenants of the god listed on their character sheet.

The entity listed can also determine eligibility of certain heritage feats as well as PrC's like Hellfire warlock which should ONLY BE GIVEN TO PACT MAKERS/WARLOCKS THAT HAVE MEPHISTOPHELES AS THE ENTITY CHOSEN ON THEIR CHARACTER SHEET.... Fey Heritage feat to those that list Arch Fey like Titania, Oberron, etc...

It lessens some of the more absurd homebrew backgrounds that many noob warlock players conjure up, it also educates a bit more or at least makes someone aware that what they choose HAS AN EFFECT ON THEIR CHARACTER AND CERTAIN EXPECTATIONS.

It is a lot less work to add or remove deities/entities allowed to a warlock than to create a whole slew of pact feats that I was suggesting earlier... to educate the player on the pact chosen as a background feat.

seems legit, at least a good starting point..

[SeraphimShade]

I think what should be implemented here is the entities that would allow pacts and their information much like when you select a deity to worship.

Only a few entities should be listed for each kind of pact or PrC available. We add a limited amount of entities that would grant pacts such as Asmodeus/Mephistopheles (infernal pact) Demogorgon/Graz'zt(Dark pact), Titania, oberron (fey pact), etc...

An entity or number of entities for each kind of pact, which limits the choices but gives each pact making warlock a focus knowing who is giving them their "gifts" and what alignments and types of pacts they represent. DM's would also know this and can react accordingly or observe the behavior of the warlock much how we evaluate holy classes following tenants of the god listed on their character sheet.

The entity listed can also determine eligibility of certain heritage feats as well as PrC's like Hellfire warlock which should ONLY BE GIVEN TO PACT MAKERS/WARLOCKS THAT HAVE MEPHISTOPHELES AS THE ENTITY CHOSEN ON THEIR CHARACTER SHEET.... Fey Heritage feat to those that list Arch Fey like Titania, Oberron, etc...

It lessens some of the more absurd homebrew backgrounds that many noob warlock players conjure up, it also educates a bit more or at least makes someone aware that what they choose HAS AN EFFECT ON THEIR CHARACTER AND CERTAIN EXPECTATIONS.

It is a lot less work to add or remove deities/entities allowed to a warlock than to create a whole slew of pact feats that I was suggesting earlier... to educate the player on the pact chosen as a background feat.

This is probably the most reasonable idea I've read so far. That and it's a very good idea that way someone without access to the forums can get some sort of idea as to what they are doing as well!

[Simian]

Warlock

Born of a supernatural bloodline, a warlock seeks to master the perilous magic that suffuses his soul. Unlike sorcerers or wizards, who approach arcane magic through the medium of spells, a warlock invokes powerful magic through nothing more than an effort of will. By harnessing his innate magical gift through fearsome determination and force of will, a warlock can perform feats of supernatural stealth, beguile the weak-minded, or scour his foes with blasts of eldritch power.

Adventures: Many warlocks are champions of dark and chaotic powers. Long ago, they (or in some cases, their ancestors) forged grim pacts with dangerous extraplanar powers, trading portions of their souls in exchange for supernatural power. While many warlocks have turned away from evil, seeking to undo the wrongs of their former colleagues, they are still chained by the old pacts through which they acquired their powers. The demand to further the designs of their dark patrons, or to resist them, drives most warlocks to seek the opportunities for power, wealth, and great deeds (for good or ill) offered by adventuring.

Characteristics: Warlocks harbor great reserves of mystical energy. The font of dark magic burning in their souls makes them resistant to many forms of attack and arms them with dangerous power. Warlocks do not wield spells, but they do learn to harness their power to perform a small number of specifi c attacks and tricks called invocations. Warlocks make up for their lack of versatility by being tougher and more resilient than sorcerers or wizards.

Alignment: Warlocks are often chaotic or evil (and more than a few are both). The powers they serve can be cruel, capricious, and wild, unbound by conventional views of right and wrong. However, even warlocks who derive their powers from the most sinister of patrons have been known to turn the black powers at their command against evil. A good-aligned warlock is a grim and fearsome enemy of evil. All too familiar with the darkness lurking in his heart, he gazes unflinchingly on the evil in others and battles the foulest of foes without fear.

Religion: Warlocks know fi rsthand the power of supernatural beings, so they do not scorn religion. Evil warlocks sometimes seek the favor of cruel and bloodthirsty deities, while good warlocks often turn to the worship of noble and true deities for the strength to win the battle raging in their tortured souls.

Background: Warlocks are born, not made. Some are the descendants of people who trafficked with demons and devils long ago. Some seek out the dark powers as youths, driven by ambition or the desire for power, but a few blameless individuals are simply marked
out by the supernatural forces as conduits and tools. The exact nature of a warlock’s origin is up to the player to decide; just as a sorcerer is not beholden to the magic-wielding ancestor that bequeathed his bloodline with arcane power, a warlock is not bound to follow the source that gifted him with magic. Warlocks are not half-fiends or tieflings by default (although many creatures of those kinds become some of the most powerful and terrifying representatives of the class). The mark that the supernatural powers leave on their servants is often a mark in the soul, not the flesh. In fact, many warlocks are created by nonevil powers—wild or fey forces that can be every bit as dangerous as demons or devils. Whatever their origin, warlocks are widely feared and misunderstood. Most are wanderers who rarely stay in one place for long.

Races: Ambitious and often unprincipled, humans are the most likely to seek out the dangerous shortcuts to power that lead to life as warlocks. Half-orcs are common as warlocks as well, since they often find that the powers that create warlocks do not discriminate against individuals of mixed heritage. Warlocks of other races are rare at best.

Other Classes: The warlock views sorcerers and wizards as bitter rivals. He values the strength and cleverness of resourceful fighters and rogues but rarely gets along with clerics or paladins. Of course, most warlocks understand that it’s a bad idea to antagonize
their comrades (especially those who hold the key to healing magic), and so they work out an uneasy truce with characters who otherwise might ostracize them.

Role: A warlock serves much the same role in an adventuring party as a sorcerer or wizard would. He is much more limited in his abilities compared to the spell selection of spellcasters, and he must rely on his eldritch blast in place of the spell power of an arcane caster. Like a bard, he often fits best in a party that already has another spellcaster or two, since his unique abilities provide him with little magic to use for his companions’ benefit.

[SeraphimShade]

I've read this before but I can't quite place where...

[Simian]

Complete Arcane, around page five or six.

[SeraphimShade]

Oh then it only sounds familiar from the compilation of sources I've read because I haven't read that book.... =/

[Passionatehatefruit]

The reason why most people hate good warlocks is because very few manage to portray a good warlock in a realistic way.

[c2k]

The reason why most people hate good warlocks is because very few manage to portray a good warlock in a realistic way.

Most people hate good warlocks because all warlocks are generally powermongers. Even your "Chaotic Good" Warlock is making pacts because they want to gain power to smite the evil, oppressive force by any means necessary. Its a very reckless and, outside of their head, evil thing to do.

Whatever they plan to use that power for may be the best intentions, but its a chaotic, questionable move and would likely receive no sympathy like many "good" warlocks crave when they are rolled.

[SeraphimShade]

Yeah well that's the way I've always seen it. The example I'll use is a vigilante in today's modern world. They're doing what they see as justice, and "good" but it violates the law. They may actually bring a criminal to justice (by capturing or killing them) but certainly no civic minded indvidual or police force will condone anyone and everyone taking the law into their own hands.

Despite what one may do you have to judge the one on the grounds of what the whole will do if allowed to make pacts with powerful beings or take justice into their own hands.

Does that make sense?

[Considerate_]

I can definetely see your point of view of them, and it's accurate enough from a modern society point of view.


The difference between our perception of the world and that of Forgotten Realms, is that it got black and white rules for what's good and what's evil. Regardless of how good your intentions are, some things are always evil in Forgotten Realms.

Making a pact with a Demon/Devil, would qualify as an evil deed no matter what your intentions are. That doesn't mean your character can't believe that he's doing good of course just as long as you, the player, know that no paladin would recieve as much as a mild sense of discomfort from their deity, if they chose to smite a warlock with a fiendish pact for no other reason than being a warlock with a fiendish pact.

[Xamot]

This has always been a tense discussion on servers over the years. I tend to play goodly PCs, especially divine casters, and I've always held to this view of Warlocks. Whether you made the pact yourself (evil act) or inherited the pact (victim of evil act) the source of the power is still evil. Warlock powers are not like a sword, or any other weapon, crafted from inanimate materials and directed by the will of the wielder to do good or evil. Warlock powers come from an evil source, the powers themselves invoke elements of the dark and evil planes, and can only be gained by an evil act. To knowingly use these powers, even to do good, is ultimately evil. You might be able to save an entire city by burning down an orphanage where all the kids are sick with Typhoid, saving the city does not justify the evil act of burning all those children alive, it's still, at its core, an evil act.

I know the rules allow for goodly aligned warlocks, but even the source material says the power is corruptive. Whenever I've allowed warlocks in my home campaigns they've always struggled with that, and only by the most tedious attention to balance do they remain even remotely neutral. Matter of fact I don't think one of them ever avoided eventually shifting to evil.

[Darksider_war]

This has always been a tense discussion on servers over the years. I tend to play goodly PCs, especially divine casters, and I've always held to this view of Warlocks. Whether you made the pact yourself (evil act) or inherited the pact (victim of evil act) the source of the power is still evil. Warlock powers are not like a sword, or any other weapon, crafted from inanimate materials and directed by the will of the wielder to do good or evil. Warlock powers come from an evil source, the powers themselves invoke elements of the dark and evil planes, and can only be gained by an evil act. To knowingly use these powers, even to do good, is ultimately evil. You might be able to save an entire city by burning down an orphanage where all the kids are sick with Typhoid, saving the city does not justify the evil act of burning all those children alive, it's still, at its core, an evil act.

I know the rules allow for goodly aligned warlocks, but even the source material says the power is corruptive. Whenever I've allowed warlocks in my home campaigns they've always struggled with that, and only by the most tedious attention to balance do they remain even remotely neutral. Matter of fact I don't think one of them ever avoided eventually shifting to evil.

Unless the source of your power is Chaotic rather than evil, in which case things could get a lot more....interesting? And definitely less tragic/passé/stereotypical. I've lost count of all the mischief and fun my chaotic good, feytouched warlock has caused already...does anyone want some soup? I swear it hasn't been laced with purgatives OR hallucinogens

[Xamot]

This has always been a tense discussion on servers over the years. I tend to play goodly PCs, especially divine casters, and I've always held to this view of Warlocks. Whether you made the pact yourself (evil act) or inherited the pact (victim of evil act) the source of the power is still evil. Warlock powers are not like a sword, or any other weapon, crafted from inanimate materials and directed by the will of the wielder to do good or evil. Warlock powers come from an evil source, the powers themselves invoke elements of the dark and evil planes, and can only be gained by an evil act. To knowingly use these powers, even to do good, is ultimately evil. You might be able to save an entire city by burning down an orphanage where all the kids are sick with Typhoid, saving the city does not justify the evil act of burning all those children alive, it's still, at its core, an evil act.

I know the rules allow for goodly aligned warlocks, but even the source material says the power is corruptive. Whenever I've allowed warlocks in my home campaigns they've always struggled with that, and only by the most tedious attention to balance do they remain even remotely neutral. Matter of fact I don't think one of them ever avoided eventually shifting to evil.

Unless the source of your power is Chaotic rather than evil, in which case things could get a lot more....interesting? And definitely less tragic/passé/stereotypical. I've lost count of all the mischief and fun my chaotic good, feytouched warlock has caused already...does anyone want some soup? I swear it hasn't been laced with purgatives OR hallucinogens

I've always thought of feylocks as an entirely different animal. Warlocks in their original design and as NWN has them set up get their powers from demons or devils. Later it was opened up to different kinds of pacts, but no idea what BG considers legit lore or not. One server I played on changed it so shapes for feylocks were different but IMO if you can only turn into a demon/devil then it's a sure sign where the power comes from.

[Hitman Hard]

Interesting concept, I recommend Hoar (2, maybe 3 on server?), Helm (lot of Helmites on the server), The Red Knight (Neutral aligned god of Planning and Strategy), even Tyr as a deity cause the even-handed is fairly misunderstood. You could do Torm as well but that's uber snowflake cheese.

Also, in a modern day setting making pacts with Devils is frowned upon. Having said that, being a vigilante and devil-pacted could.. maybe work if you were constantly on your toes and knew how to manipulate your master.

I wouldn't go the fey pact route, with so much 3.5 and 4.0 lore jumbled together and you have to worry about losing your sanity. Kinda hard getting things "done."