Order of the Bow Initiate

[Stonebar]

Crossbows have the crossbow sniper feats.

Some people don't realize that crossbows max out at only 3 attacks in a round, unlike the 7 a bow gets. You also have to spend two feats to even get those 3 attacks and at a -2 attack penalty. 1 shot volley crossbow vs. 3 shot volley with a bow. That's not counting having to get the sniper feats. The Sniper feat evens things out, it in no way allows an advantage over a Bow, so should not be a factor here.

I understand medieval history. Unless we start removing the ability to master anything that can double as a farm tool, or making rules where swords do less damage to full plate and only nobles should use them, the history on the nature of a weapon has less a factor in a fantasy world where Orc run around with an axe the size of a full grown cow lol.

My reasoning is the class' theme is simple, precision shooting, how does Cross"bow" sniper not fit such sharp shooting? I'm honestly surprised this would be a problem, it's not like there's a balance issue or any stretch in reasoning. Why make a new class when adding two feat options is easy.

[Stonebar]

PS: The OOTBI quote is

"one shot, one kill"

What profession comes to mind, Sniper

[Rasael]

Crossbows have the crossbow sniper feats.

Some people don't realize that crossbows max out at only 3 attacks in a round, unlike the 7 a bow gets. You also have to spend two feats to even get those 3 attacks and at a -2 attack penalty. 1 shot volley crossbow vs. 3 shot volley with a bow. That's not counting having to get the sniper feats. The Sniper feat evens things out, it in no way allows an advantage over a Bow, so should not be a factor here.

I understand medieval history. Unless we start removing the ability to master anything that can double as a farm tool, or making rules where swords do less damage to full plate and only nobles should use them, the history on the nature of a weapon has less a factor in a fantasy world where Orc run around with an axe the size of a full grown cow lol.

My reasoning is the class' theme is simple, precision shooting, how does Cross"bow" sniper not fit such sharp shooting? I'm honestly surprised this would be a problem, it's not like there's a balance issue or any stretch in reasoning. Why make a new class when adding two feat options is easy.

I know this a way you reason it out, it wasn't meant that way.

The class is focussed on regular bows for two reasons. One is because X-bows are stronger than normal bows, with Crossbow Sniper feats. We don't really want to make X-bows stronger. The second reason is because the lore behind the OOBI focusses on bows, not crossbows.

There is ofcourse room for enabling crossbows with the OOBI ranged shots. But that would mean Crossbow Sniper needs to be taken out of the equation. If it applies with OOBI ranges that'd make it way too strong.

[dzidek1983]

crosbows with limited attacks but higher AB would put to real use the bonus 5d8 from 120 feet
thats another 20 dmg avg on each of those 3 hits (4 with haste)

so OOBI would just give the crossbow 60-80 dmg per round bonus

the question like Stonebar noticed is... why bows get it but crossbows dont?
i can understand the class per see is not a x-bow oriented and i respect that...
otoh we opened assasin to all alignments to spare us work with new class implementation...
why not do the same with OOBI?

bows have up to 8 attacks with haste
x-bows have up to 4 attacks with haste

i put aside the assasin manyshot builds as x-bows loose here even with master crossbower feat

we forget x-bows are unable also to take the AA class so the only real crossbow PRC out there is the Elemental Archer that applies to all ranged weapons while bows already have 2 PRC's
all this makes them TOP x-bows in later levels

i agree that master crossbower put x-bows on par with a bow on a PLAIN build
and OOBI would still have them on the same level
the only advantage of the x-bow would be that it would be better vs DR enemies

[Rasael]

From what I remember X bows are better than bows, for example because they split the BAB and AB over fewer attacks. So while you only have 3 or 4 attacks, you are far more likely to hit with those than a Bowman is with his full 6 or 7. You'd have to ask Molag Baal about the exact reasoning. I proposed a feat which lets crossbows gain the full 6 attacks, but that was shot down for the above reasons.

The problem with OOBI then is with the Crossbow Sniper feats. Xbow sniper doesn't work the way they do in PnP where they extend your sneak attack range. Like how the OOBI works. Instead, in NWN2 Xbow sniper gives more damage, a lot of it. Which more than offsets your 3 lost attacks which often wouldn't hit anyway.

That is why Xbows do not work OOBI. They have the Xbow sniper feats. Which is exactly as was intended by the designers of D&D. Giving Xbows access to OOBI while also letting them have the XBow sniper feats is "double". Sure the Xbow sniper feats don't work like the OOBI does, but they still give a whole load of damage to make them better than regular bows.

So that's why I'm saying: its possible to give Xbow people access to the OOBI ranged precision attacks. But that means that the Crossbow Sniper feats would be re-purposed into that (losing the damage), or that you would not get to use Xbow sniper in combination with the OOBI class.

You can't have both the super Xbow sniper damage, and the OOBI range.

And on top of that there is also the class lore reason I gave you. The OOBI class is written around use of regular bows. Not crossbows. But that is a "soft" reason, which we could probably write around.

[dzidek1983]

okey i understand that... you said though

From what I remember X bows are better than bows, for example because they split the BAB and AB over fewer attacks. So while you only have 3 or 4 attacks, you are far more likely to hit with those than a Bowman is with his full 6 or 7.

this is all true, but lets not foget the attacks of the bow on the first attack will have the same AB as the bow if we build the same way, how can this be different?

same dex, same feats, same class ends up with same ranged AB

for example a pure 26 BAB and improved rapid shot
with a bow +26/+26/+21/+16/+11/+6/+1
with a x-bow +26/+26/+21
haste ads one high BAB attack at the end for both

so the only bonus the x-bow has its that it doesnt waste bolts on low BAB attacks
but the bow can still hit on the other attacks if he rolls higher

hence the mastery bonus tries to even out with dmg that the x-bow looses 4 attacks that can potentially hit, especially from HIPS, not mentioning the manyshot and the first flurry configuration differences

so even if we dont allow x-bows to get OOBI i cant agree that they are better then bows or even on par in some situations

[Stonebar]

The opening volley is also a disadvantage of note. Example: Within the first 2 seconds of a battle compare a Long bows 7 attacks vs. a Cross"bow"s 3 attacks.
The Long Bow will get it's 3 highest attacks off, while the cross"bow" gets only 1 attack in the same amount of time. That initial volley in a round is critical when an angry troll is charging you.

Honestly I picked a character with crossbow only because it made more RP sense for a Dwarf, and I did not get hips for the same reason only because ranged attacks plus Hips at the same time and Dwarf should shave his beard . Clearly a build not for power lol. This class has survival as a class skill, which is perfect for his RP background. The class fills a slot that no other class can, for those ranged attackers who don't want to be rangers, do to god selection, divine link, or others. (reasoning behind the Hunter class idea) except this fits far better for RPing a ranged attacker with no spells who devotes his life to the weapon.

[BloodRiot]

Hi again.

Don't want to be THAT guy, but can i get an estimate for when it's getting fixed please?

Depending on how fast it is fixed i may want to postpone taking more levels of OOBI so I can get benefits from my other classes first.

I'm soon to reach a level, where in my original plan i would take an OOBI level.

Thanks.

[Hoihe]

Wielding a bow with Rapid Shot feat, or wearing an item providing the same gives the character the OOBI qualification feat on level up.

Hoihe has the OOBI Rapid shot qualification feat right now. Leveled up with bow out accidentally.

Not sure how serious a bug, but it seems like an exploit.

[Rasael]

Its not a problem. Its how its meant to work to flag that you have the rapid shot feat or ranger equivalent. You still need the other OOBI requirements, just like with the Archmage.

[Hoihe]

Alright.

[KillRaven007]

Right now everything is enabled with the exception of extend range.
Rasael thinks he has a fix. I just haven't had time to look at it yet.

So it should be playable as is. It's just missing a feat right now that comes with that class.

Has this been sorted out yet? Im keen to continue to play my character with this feat and hope this issue has been fixed.?

[Rasael]

Yes we have a version that should be fully fixed. I've asked Luna to put it on the server when he can. So it kind of depends on his available time. Its the holiday season so things are a bit slow

[krimsondaddy]

just a bump for ETA and what will be changed with new skillset fix.

[Rasael]

I don't know an ETA. Luna has the file so I assume it will be in the coming update. Its hard to say. We also have some extensive area merging and development going on.