Epic Spell Focus Question (Resolved)

[Carbondk]

Yeah, thought so, you don't really know much about epic spells do you.

Try and read the spell description.

[dzidek1983]

ok this one has a bonus to its DC

sorry i forgot...

but the rest dont... so the calculation is true for the rest

[Carbondk]

Your point being? As I already stated, the difference between an implosion of DC 41 and 43 isn't really that large. Mobs will die anyway. Most players too.

There is such a thing as a ceiling effect.

[Carbondk]

So as to answer the OP's original question:

I have WIS of 29. I have two epic feats left. I decide to take one WIS and epic spell focus, thus granting me WIS 30 and 34 with owl's.
Had I picked 2 WIS feats I'd have gotten a WIS total of 31, or 35 with owl's, and thus one less DC on all my evocation spells.

Voila.

[AlfarinIcebreaker]

Here is a practical example :

20 Wizard/10 Blood Magus, Sun Elf

Start with 20 Intelligence and Spellcasting Prodigy. All the natural leveling ability increases go to Intelligence (+7). You take Spell Focus and Greater Spell Focus in Evocation because you will have feats to spare, and then you'll delay 15th and of course 20th levels of Wizard to Epic levels and thus be able to pick two additional epic feats like that.

So, you have 7 Epic feats to spend. What do you spend them on? 5x Great Intelligence, Epic Spell Focus : Evocation and Epic Ruin.

Your final Intelligence score will be 32, but you are also going to wear Anagry's Mindmaze which will net you some nice extra spells, +4 to saves against mind effects and +2 to Intelligence which is crucial here, because coupled with Spellcasting Prodigy your effective Intelligence score will be 36, and that will open up additional 9th level spell slot.

Of course, you will cast Fox Cunning for 1 extra DC, making your total effective Intelligence score of 38. On top of that, you will have +3 to DCs in your school of choice (Evocation in this example) and a nice Epic Spell to complement your arsenal.

All in all, it is a good question, as you really need to thoroughly plan out your equipment and whole build. But in this case it's obviously well worth it.

[Aelcar]

Here is a practical example :

20 Wizard/10 Blood Magus, Sun Elf

Start with 20 Intelligence and Spellcasting Prodigy. All the natural leveling ability increases go to Intelligence (+7). You take Spell Focus and Greater Spell Focus in Evocation because you will have feats to spare, and then you'll delay 15th and of course 20th levels of Wizard to Epic levels and thus be able to pick two additional epic feats like that.

So, you have 7 Epic feats to spend. What do you spend them on? 5x Great Intelligence, Epic Spell Focus : Evocation and Epic Ruin.

Your final Intelligence score will be 32, but you are also going to wear Anagry's Mindmaze which will net you some nice extra spells, +4 to saves against mind effects and +2 to Intelligence which is crucial here, because coupled with Spellcasting Prodigy your effective Intelligence score will be 36, and that will open up additional 9th level spell slot.

Of course, you will cast Fox Cunning for 1 extra DC, making your total effective Intelligence score of 38. On top of that, you will have +3 to DCs in your school of choice (Evocation in this example) and a nice Epic Spell to complement your arsenal.

All in all, it is a good question, as you really need to thoroughly plan out your equipment and whole build. But in this case it's obviously well worth it.

Yeah. As stated previously:

Yes, actually. If you have 33 INT, the benefit is nonexistent. ESF is extremely useful when you have 32 INT + Epic Spell + ESF. If you are not interested in any Epic Spell, or if you do not have the feats to get such a high INT, then go ahead and skip it in order to have INT 34 + 4 + Prodigy.

Proper DC Wizards dont use +3 INT items.

[Deathgrowl]

Your math is wrong. Not all people care for using 7 epic feats on stat increases.
Some of us actually like our epic spells. Nuff said.

The math wasn't wrong. You can't answer a mathematical equation with an emotional argument.

Sure, you like your epic spells. Other people like their DCs (that includes me).

[Carbondk]

Deathgrowl, the math is wrong when the OP assumes that you're starting off with an uneven stat, when that might not be the case, cause you used the feats for other things.

Let me be more presise, the -premise- of the math is wrong. Debating whether to take DCs or epic spells is an entirely different discussion, and not one I started, but that doesn't change the fact that it has been proven here by three different posters that epic spell focus is indeed useful in some circumstances.

Did you have any other complaint?

[Deathgrowl]

Deathgrowl, the math is wrong when the OP assumes that you're starting off with an uneven stat, when that might not be the case, cause you used the feats for other things.

As he also explained, what he said was true for those that start off with an even stat. Disregarding epic feats, you get seven stat increases. So if you start with an even stat (18 and 20 being the most common, I suppose), and go all on that stat, you'll end up with an uneven stat (25 and 27 respectively).

So: If you care about DCs and not epic spells, you can use all five or seven (depending on build) epic feats for stat increases, putting you at an even stat in the end. If you have six or eight (which I think only happens with pure wizard), you can take ESF.

You're of course right that ESF is useful in some circumstances (Aelcar's point about 32int + esf + epic spell versus 34 int, for instance). But in the case where you don't care about epic spells, the 34 int is better.

[dzidek1983]

i know one thing.. any caster is as strong as his main sta is.. a wizard lives off his INT score...

so if you have 29 base INT while you could have had 33 you are doing it wrong
at least when we look at the raw numbers
if you look at some RP values then sure go and build as you desire

[Carbondk]

You want to tell me how to play my character, you who have not ever played a cleric? Let alone a blaster cleric? What gall and arrogance.

No I am most certainly not doing it wrong, as you claim.

You play a wizard, I play a cleric, go figure - do I really need to spell it out for you?

ONE: Clerics sorely need direct damage spells, more so than wizards. Do you even know what blaster/DC spells are available in the divine spell book? You're not going to live off implosions and SoV you know. Thus, taking epic spells makes you a much more viable blaster cleric, and gives you access to lots of irresistable damage.

TWO: I, unlike you, can buff up with divine spells and rock melee. Thus I don't really care much for those last 2 DC. If it has so high saves that they're needed, odds are I'll be better off just smashing it with my hammer instead. No DC needed.

THREE: Epic spells are great for dealing massive damage instantly. When do you need that? Bosses and PvP. I like bosses and I do PvP sometimes. Without those epic spells, both things would be a lot less in my favour.

And finally, FOUR: I could easily make a frost mage/ASOC based wizard build that has abysmal DCs and still rock in both PvP and PvE. Reason? Isaac's, polar rays, orbs, ice storms etc. No save, no DC needed.

[Styxwash]

Deathgrowl, the math is wrong when the OP assumes that you're starting off with an uneven stat, when that might not be the case, cause you used the feats for other things.

What feats are you talking about? I was referring to the stats gained through levelling.

Your saying I screwed up the simple math in this?

Oh, and about the ceiling effect, good point, although there's likely to be certain enemies that break the ceiling even at max DC's, so it's a matter if you wan't to specialize or not, clearly, as always.

You start with 18 Int and put 6 points into it = 24 + Epic Spell Focus
You start with 18 Int and put 7 points into it = 25 + 1 Epic Int

Anyway, never meant to start a heated discussion, just trying to make sense of it. Clearly there's a point to Epic Spell Focus, it just didn't make sense in the example I used and I also understand how it can be used effectively. No worries, be glad.

[Carbondk]

Sorry, but your thread has been hijacked. This is no longer a discussion of the usefulness of epic spell focus, this is now a heated debate over epic spells. Live with it =D

[Deathgrowl]

You want to tell me how to play my character, you who have not ever played a cleric? Let alone a blaster cleric? What gall and arrogance.

No I am most certainly not doing it wrong, as you claim.

You play a wizard, I play a cleric, go figure - do I really need to spell it out for you?

Hahaha! OK! Arrogance. I'll take it.

You must as well, with this assumption.

No one is telling you how to play. We're simply crunching numbers.

[Carbondk]

Deathgrowl, not everything I write is intended for you.

And that post was a reply to the earlier one, by dzdidek, not by you.

Do you have something factual to contribute with? If not I suggest you do something more constructive with your time than continue to reply to my messages. It gets rather tedious in the long run.