"Splitting" lore skill into knowledge.

[NegInfinity]

Short while ago, I was asked to "split" lore skill into several knowledge skills for the purpose of answering some quesiton I asked ("does my char know X" kind of question).

Haven't seen/heard of anything like that before. In the end I dropped the subject.

Is that a new standard practice or was that one-time thing?

The problem is that lore does not map directly onto knowledge. It doesn't help that the whole knowledge system is kinda messy.

[DM Narshe]

It's something certain circles tend to favor more than others. Candlekeep generally asks it's members to allocate their lore into the various knowledges. I imagine it's so that one character with a high lore skill can't be the master of all knowledge. Gives some niche room for others to specialize.

It's not required beyond what guilds ask of their members. Some DMs prefer lore allocated into certain knowledges as well but we don't expect it.

Personally, I'd support the player who wishes to specialize in something. If presented a scenario where two high-Lore characters roll to see if they recognize something and one of them has RP'd as having studied dragons, I might support the dragon-studying RP with a bit more information.

The way I look at a system with Lore and distributed Knowledges is sort of like a museum. While everyone working at the museum likely has a moderate to high Lore skill, they still have experts in their respective areas. That's all this really equates to.

[DM Golem]

Its a rule I apply to my events, as I do not like the "I have lore 50 so I know everything" approach. Its not compulsory (although I don't let people roll on their lore, so I guess it is in my events), nor is it DM team wide.


The main point is that Lore cannot be sensibly used for "Do I know X" as all DC guidance is based on the knowledge skill, and thus lower, because the points are split/specialised.

I would heartily encourage people to RP splitting their lore skill down into specific fields. It can only create RP, rather than have a bunch of Swiss army knife scholars running about.

[NegInfinity]

Its a rule I apply to my events, as I do not like the "I have lore 50 so I know everything" approach. Its not compulsory (although I don't let people roll on their lore, so I guess it is in my events), nor is it DM team wide.

The main point is that Lore cannot be sensibly used for "Do I know X" as all DC guidance is based on the knowledge skill, and thus lower, because the points are split/specialised.

I would heartily encourage people to RP splitting their lore skill down into specific fields. It can only create RP, rather than have a bunch of Swiss army knife scholars running about.

While I do not roleplay "know everything" (generally char specializes in something), splitting skill into parts kinda poses problem.

Just arithmetically splitting lore skill into multiple knowledges seems wrong. Mostly because if lore represents all trivia collected, it would make sense to turn it into average (or weighted average), not a sum of knowledge skillpoints. Also, individual knowledge skills would receive bonuses from int (each one of them) so combined together they would not sum up to lore value.

There are also problems concerning what knowledge belongs to what area.
Which knowledge governs existence of illithids and beholders, for example?
Why is hellfire warlock covered by knowledge (planes) when hellfire blast is recognizeable by spellcraft check?
How can I have Knowledge(arcana) 0 with spellcraft 33?
And the like of those.

Would be nice to have something a bit more flexible than splitting points.

[Hoihe]

Its a rule I apply to my events, as I do not like the "I have lore 50 so I know everything" approach. Its not compulsory (although I don't let people roll on their lore, so I guess it is in my events), nor is it DM team wide.

The main point is that Lore cannot be sensibly used for "Do I know X" as all DC guidance is based on the knowledge skill, and thus lower, because the points are split/specialised.

I would heartily encourage people to RP splitting their lore skill down into specific fields. It can only create RP, rather than have a bunch of Swiss army knife scholars running about.

While I do not roleplay "know everything" (generally char specializes in something), splitting skill into parts kinda poses problem.

Just arithmetically splitting lore skill into multiple knowledges seems wrong. Mostly because if lore represents all trivia collected, it would make sense to turn it into average (or weighted average), not a sum of knowledge skillpoints. Also, individual knowledge skills would receive bonuses from int (each one of them) so combined together they would not sum up to lore value.

There are also problems concerning what knowledge belongs to what area.
Which knowledge governs existence of illithids and beholders, for example?
Why is hellfire warlock covered by knowledge (planes) when hellfire blast is recognizeable by spellcraft check?
How can I have Knowledge(arcana) 0 with spellcraft 33?
And the like of those.

Would be nice to have something a bit more flexible than splitting points.

On Illithids/beholders:
Dungeoneering
Planar
Aberrations

Or if going exotic...
Forbidden Knowledge.

[Duster47]

The Avowed of Candlekeep split their Lore/Knowledge skill points in accordance with this list:

Like the Craft and Profession skills, Knowledge actually encompasses a number of unrelated skills. Knowledge represents a study of some body of lore, possibly an academic or even scientific discipline.
Below are listed typical fields of study.
Arcana (ancient mysteries, magic traditions, arcane symbols, cryptic phrases, constructs, dragons, magical beasts)
Architecture and engineering (buildings, aqueducts, bridges, fortifications)
Dungeoneering (aberrations, caverns, oozes, spelunking)
Geography (lands, terrain, climate, people)
History (royalty, wars, colonies, migrations, founding of cities)
Local (legends, personalities, inhabitants, laws, customs, traditions, humanoids)
Nature (animals, fey, giants, monstrous humanoids, plants, seasons and cycles, weather, vermin)
Nobility and royalty (lineages, heraldry, family trees, mottoes, personalities)
Religion (gods and goddesses, mythic history, ecclesiastic tradition, holy symbols, undead)
The planes (the Inner Planes, the Outer Planes, the Astral Plane, the Ethereal Plane, outsiders, elementals, magic related to the planes)
Check: Answering a question within your field of study has a DC of 10 (for really easy questions), 15 (for basic questions), or 20 to 30 (for really tough questions).
In many cases, you can use this skill to identify monsters and their special powers or vulnerabilities. In general, the DC of such a check equals 10 + the monster’s HD. A successful check allows you to remember a bit of useful information about that monster. For every 5 points by which your check result exceeds the DC, you recall another piece of useful information.
Action: Usually none. In most cases, making a Knowledge check doesn’t take an action—you simply know the answer or you don’t.
Try Again: No. The check represents what you know, and thinking about a topic a second time doesn’t let you know something that you never learned in the first place.
Synergy: If you have 5 or more ranks in Knowledge (arcana), you get a +2 bonus on Spellcraft checks.
If you have 5 or more ranks in Knowledge (architecture and engineering), you get a +2 bonus on Search checks made to find secret doors or hidden compartments.
If you have 5 or more ranks in Knowledge (geography), you get a +2 bonus on Survival checks made to keep from getting lost or to avoid natural hazards.
If you have 5 or more ranks in Knowledge (history), you get a +2 bonus on bardic knowledge checks.
If you have 5 or more ranks in Knowledge (local), you get a +2 bonus on Gather Information checks.
If you have 5 or more ranks in Knowledge (nature), you get a +2 bonus on Survival checks made in aboveground natural environments (aquatic, desert, forest, hill, marsh, mountains, or plains).
If you have 5 or more ranks in Knowledge (nobility and royalty), you get a +2 bonus on Diplomacy checks.
If you have 5 or more ranks in Knowledge (religion), you get a +2 bonus on turning checks against undead.
If you have 5 or more ranks in Knowledge (the planes), you get a +2 bonus on Survival checks made while on other planes.
If you have 5 or more ranks in Knowledge (dungeoneering), you get a +2 bonus on Survival checks made while underground.
If you have 5 or more ranks in Survival, you get a +2 bonus on Knowledge (nature) checks.
Untrained: An untrained Knowledge check is simply an Intelligence check. Without actual training, you know only common knowledge (DC 10 or lower).

Bonuses from items and magical effects only increase non-zero ranks on specific topics. It is not often used IG but it is there when needed. Anyone can do this.

[Tsidkenu]

I like to roleplay my characters this way. I split my lore skill into Knowledge: Arcana and Knowledge: Religion, with a few points thrown into Knowledge: Local (Evermeet), Knowledge: History (Elvish), and at least a few ranks in Knowledge: The Planes, as well as Profession: Astrologer.

So of those topics she discusses at length using ooc info gleaned by myself. If she were asked a question on dwarven architecture or something like that, I simply RP that she doesn't know/has had no experience of this.

With my dwarf I utilise his lore skill as Knowledge: Dungeoneering and his Appraise skill I double up as Knowledge: Engineering and Architecture as well as Profession: Engineer. Outside of these fields he does not know much in depth.

Determining what exactly pertains to a general knowledge check (DC 10), as well as more difficult, specialised knowledge checks is something I'd like to hear a DMs perspective on though.

I'm of the impression that Knowledge checks are also trained skills. You only "know" beyond common knowledge (DC 10 INT check) in a given field if you have spent at least 1 skill point in that field (which then lets you make the DC 15, 20 and 30 checks for more difficult aspects of specified knowledge in that field).

[DM Golem]

Its a rule I apply to my events, as I do not like the "I have lore 50 so I know everything" approach. Its not compulsory (although I don't let people roll on their lore, so I guess it is in my events), nor is it DM team wide.

The main point is that Lore cannot be sensibly used for "Do I know X" as all DC guidance is based on the knowledge skill, and thus lower, because the points are split/specialised.

I would heartily encourage people to RP splitting their lore skill down into specific fields. It can only create RP, rather than have a bunch of Swiss army knife scholars running about.

While I do not roleplay "know everything" (generally char specializes in something), splitting skill into parts kinda poses problem.

Just arithmetically splitting lore skill into multiple knowledges seems wrong. Mostly because if lore represents all trivia collected, it would make sense to turn it into average (or weighted average), not a sum of knowledge skillpoints. Also, individual knowledge skills would receive bonuses from int (each one of them) so combined together they would not sum up to lore value.

There are also problems concerning what knowledge belongs to what area.
Which knowledge governs existence of illithids and beholders, for example?
Why is hellfire warlock covered by knowledge (planes) when hellfire blast is recognizeable by spellcraft check?
How can I have Knowledge(arcana) 0 with spellcraft 33?
And the like of those.

Would be nice to have something a bit more flexible than splitting points.

Neginfinity,

I've updated my DM thread with the information Duster47 provided. It is what I go by and probably should have been there from the get go.

However, if you are wanting to persuade me to use a different system in my events, its not a "Question for DMs", its a question for me and is best taken to PMs.

I suspect you won't persuade me, though.

[Duster47]

One more thing, in a Candlekeep thread, Maecius includes Astronomy and Forbidden Lore on his list.

[DM Golem]

Thankyou Duster. The system generally allows players to come up with their own specialist fields, I've put those fields and the fact that there can be others into my DM post