Sneak matters: Epic Precision

[Boddynock]

My suggestion was meant to be a suggestion to get people taking about how it could be done without opening the floodgates of opurtunistic builds. But the majority of talk is simply talking about why it should never be done or can never work instead of constructively working towards any sort of goal. I concede. It will never work here because people don't want it to, apparently.

[Blackman D]

well it is still a rp server last i checked, expect things that take away from what a class is suppose to be when its one of their strongest traits to be resisted

even tho most the content forces you to powerbuild or at least optimize to see it, rogue is already a good 3 level dip for multiple reasons but if you take away a reason to go high level rogue then people also stop making concepts around being sneaks when they only have to dip in it

the sneak population is already in a bad way, no one is in a hurry to make it worse

and on that note i will point out that most class changes that get approved are to encourage people to take -more- of the class not less

[Ithilan]

-snip-... give everyone access to everything.

And that is not the kind of slippery slope I wish to encourage.

Which is my point exactly.

[thids]

Let's make one thing clear: Epic Precision is not a pnp feat. The only thing that vaguely resembles the feat is Death's Ruin alternative class ability from Complete Champion for divine themed rogues, and that requires them to lose their trap sense in exchange for half sneak attack damage to undead only. This is Obsidian mumbo-jumbo feat, so this discussion does not exist outside of a mechanical discussion. Especially considering the fact that majority of you would probably flip out if other Obsidian feats like Expose Weakness were set to work as Obsidian described them to work.


That said, I'd be for opening this feat to other pre-requisites but not before rogues receive some love.

[Thorsson]

Yes, this game doesn't work mechanically much like PNP at all; there's all sorts of bugs, not to mention the added Feats and stuff like 10 minute per level spells lasting much longer than 24 hour ones. Here we have Rogues being given a Feat that doesn't even exist in PnP. So no justification for uniqueness whatsoever.

Rogues have no need for love. They also have Sneak Attack, can easily qualify for HiPS, can get Epic Dodge. Rogues won't disappear if EP becomes available via other means. What there is a need for, since Uncanny Dodge got fixed, is higher AB sneakers. That's because Obsidan also broke AB in NWN2, meaning the difference between High & Medium AB is bigger than it should be.

Making EP available under some circumstances a slippery slope? You're having a laugh. Firstly it's not a new Feat; unlike many of the powerful ones that *have* been added, and it pales into insignificance compared to the caster bug. UMD is much more powerful than PnP - also much bigger than EP.

I've never seen so many straw men in such a short space.

[Face]

Yep AB is a problem for rogues and the fact that classes like dread commando and nightsong enforcer are not in this server makes all the mutch harder to make a rogue build with a good amount of rouge levels.

[mrm3ntalist]

Yep AB is a problem for rogues

Can you expand on this? Where are you having problems with low AB rogues?

[thids]

Rogues have no need for love. They also have Sneak Attack, can easily qualify for HiPS, can get Epic Dodge. Rogues won't disappear if EP becomes available via other means. What there is a need for, since Uncanny Dodge got fixed, is higher AB sneakers. That's because Obsidan also broke AB in NWN2, meaning the difference between High & Medium AB is bigger than it should be.

This is what I was thinking of with "some love" comment. As increasing their AB in some way is basically impossible, they would need something else to make them an appealing class in the mechanical sense. You can get epic dodge and stack your sneak attacks all you want, it won't help you against high AC opponents (like some bosses on the server) once the EW auto-hit bug is fixed. I'd rather have issues like this looked into before opening epic precision to other pre-requisites.

Yep AB is a problem for rogues and the fact that classes like dread commando and nightsong enforcer are not in this server makes all the mutch harder to make a rogue build with a good amount of rouge levels.

It's not really difficult at the moment, in pve you have no issues hitting most stuff once you get hips, as for high AC opponents like bosses in epic levels there's expose weakness with auto-hit bug. And every time you land an "actual" hit with it, your chance to hit rises exponentially. I just don't know what will happen once the auto-hit is fixed. I mean you can always build your sneaks with 8 fighter levels and 3 bodyguard levels, but that's a gimmicky solution.

[grymhild]

couldn't a rogue also UMD scrolls like Divine Power, Greater Heroism, etc?

[Face]

Yep AB is a problem for rogues

Can you expand on this? Where are you having problems with low AB rogues?

With leveling....Its hard to kill stuff if you cant hit the monsters. And i gues UMD helps a bit but what about folks who dont want to invest 25 points in UMD?

Besides all the prc's that gell wel with rogue are not on this server or maybe im just a shit builder. so evry one and his mom gows rogue ib fighter assassin...

[mrm3ntalist]

With leveling....Its hard to kill stuff if you cant hit the monsters. And i gues UMD helps a bit but what about folks who dont want to invest 25 points in UMD?

Besides all the prc's that gell wel with rogue are not on this server or maybe im just a (#2) builder. so evry one and his mom gows rogue ib fighter assassin...

My lvl23 rogue has an AB of 28 on the builder. Up to this level I didnt have a problem hitting mobs even on areas with slightly higher CR than my characters ( with no UMD use ). Is there a specific area in which you have a problem?

[chad878262]

You can get epic dodge and stack your sneak attacks all you want, it won't help you against high AC opponents (like some bosses on the server) once the EW auto-hit bug is fixed.

That's ok Thids, most sneaks don't take on epic bosses besides the epic Lizardman chief. They all have true sight and are essentially impossible for sneaks. I'm sure their are builds that can sneak and also take them on, but if you take out bards and are talking rogue sneaks they really can't go after epic bosses at all, stealth is their only way to survive and do damage so if there stealth doesn't work they are going to the fugue. Now if they don't have wards up the stealth party might work, but then if they attack they are seen and have no wards with low fort and will saves... Not gonna survive any bosses that drop 5k gold that way....

AB isn't going to fix rogue/sneaks, though it would help. Having some epic content that is difficult but rewarding for sneak builds would be nice though. Maybe a dungeon with traps and magic chests that require open lock to yet? Maybe a boss that is difficult for melee, but susceptible to sneak/death attacks? I don't really know the answer, but imho if sneaks could have a chance at more epic content than more would play. While the favored souls, gishes, bards, etc. are farming the balor, frost giant king, and yuan ti queen, etc. Sneaks are going through Nashkel mines, though I've heard most leave the pit fiend alone then maybe going to the lizard caves and a few might brave the frost keep if they can find an unguarded chest.

It's tough being a sneak, a dedicated sneak, not a player that also sneaks or took the minimum requirements to abuse hips with very little stealth. However, opening up this feat to non-rogues just gives power builds access to one of the only things that is a reason to play a rogue.

What I might consider, though would be lower priority over what is currently out there is if someone suggested a lesser version, perhaps that a rogue could take to stack with EP. Maybe an 8 SA requirement that allows you to get 1/4 your SA dice? So without 10 rogue levels you can get 2 SA against crit immune and with rogue 10 you can get 6. Seems a middle ground to me that I would be ok with, seeing as rogues aren't exactly op in pve and would still have the same issues they have today with epic bosses. Plus this still requires significant level investment if you are going to hit 8 SA dice... would require 9 assassin plus 3 NWN9 plus something else or 9 assassin and 5 IB... So in any case about half your levels would be invested in classes that grant SA dice.

couldn't a rogue also UMD scrolls like Divine Power, Greater Heroism, etc?

This would get expensive for a character that can't farm any bosses that drop 5k...

[mrm3ntalist]

I am against this suggestion because it will provide a power boost and allow more powerbuilding. In specific:

- Fighter/assassin archer with manyshot will do full DA damage against crit immune
- Rogue will be able to powerbuild more, since they will only need 13rogue levels in order to get all rogue feats ( epic presicion, epic dodge and prereqs). More importantly, rogue/assassins with epic dodge will be able to get a 4th PRC. Currently it is not possible because the 3b20 rule unless they delay hips for level 30
- EDM fighters and bards with feint, wil lget more damage against crit immunes
- Wizards/AT will get sneak damage against sneak immune, ontop of their lvl9 spells, epic spells etc.

Clearly it is a powerboost but is it needed? I havent heard a reason of why such change is required. Of course one build is not going to be 100% efficient against some types of enemies, that is the nature of this game. If one feels that sneak immune mobs will be an issue for their character, they should build around it.

[chad878262]

Still need 8d6 SA in my example... could go with 10d6 to further make it specific to high SA builds. Was just proposing an alternative to the original request. Fighter assassin, EDM bards, and arcane tricksters still need classes to get them higher SA which may take away from what they already have. Is it needed, no it isn't, but seems a few people are interested in it. *shrug* as was stated earlier rogues and similar builds that suffer mightily in pve are some of the most fun in events so fair trade in my book.

[Ithilan]

10d6 sounds more reasonable to me Chad, since id preffer if it was exclusively for very sneak oriented builds, as opposed to the semi variants out there.

I am still inclined to say no though, I dont like opening up every single unique abbility of the classes to others. I think its a huge charm factor and it demands sacrifices build wise to obtain this feat, like many others and that is why these character build mechanics are so intriguing, because you cant have it all.