Sneak matters: Epic Precision

[Face]

Jep i think that rogue build of mine was full rouge and assassin and it had hips on level what 14 or so and still then the mobs killed me faster then i could kill them so it was a lot if time getting killed cous you got ac around 30 with good gear and that wil get you killed realy fast even with jumping in and out on the mobs using hips.

[chad878262]

pretty mutch evry where from level 1 to 20 so i gave up and made a ranged sneaker.
like are there feats to take or something besides the expert tactic one?

Or are there realy good weapons besides the sneak dagger and short sword?

to be clear, weapons that add sneak attack damage are useless to a rogue (but beneficial to an assassin with no rogue levels). This is due to the fact that the +xd6 Sneak Attack will not stack with existing sneak dice, so if your rogue has 5d6 SA and you have a dagger w/ +2d6 SA you still only do 5d6. However, if you have an assassin with the same dagger and no SA dice you get 5d6 Death Attack + 2d6 SA.

Strong feats for consideration on a melee SA Rogue would be all the TWF feats, probably stealthy, SF Hide, SF MS, and then whatever feats you need for your PRC's... You need either assassin or shadowdancer ASAP to get HiPS early as possible. SD get's it at level 8, but you have to take dodge and mobility, two otherwise low value feats. Assassin can get you hips by 13 if I remember correctly and is overall the more powerful class. A popular build is R16 / A9 / IB5 because you get lots of SA damage, epic dodge, epic precision, HiPS and death attack. Another option if you are interested would be to go Rogue/SD/Whirling Dervish/Bodyguard. WD will give you lots of skill focus feats, some SA and +5% movement from dash, Bodyguard 3 will give 2d6 SA dice and 10% movements speed, SD grants HiPS. so R13/SD3/WD10/BG3 = 29 levels and would get some cool stuff including epid dodge and EP, plus 15% faster movement.

YMMV, but I would say if you are struggling all the way to 20 your build and or your equipment was sub-par. Sneaks struggle compared to many of the other classes and their are areas of the server they can't solo bosses, but levels 1-20 it should not be that difficult.

Regarding your AC 30... It is important as a rogue/assassin to ensure you have UMD and make use of wands/scrolls of things like barkskin/spiderskin, heroism, improved mage armor, mirror image, shield (for short term like bosses), as well as things on occasion like energy immunity, lesser spell mantle, divine power, etc. Finally... displacement and improved invisibility is your friend...

[Face]

Its ok i play crossbow sniper 3 rogue 8 fighter 8 assassin and some wilderniss stalker levels atm and it works but a melee rogue on this server is just meh with out all them cool prc's.

PS sorry for the derail.

[Lag]

Unrelated but was there ever talk about the nightsong classes? Really neat in flavor in so far that they offer paths for two different types of rogues. I also really dig the teamwork abilties offered.

[Calodan]

So slightly on topic about making Epic Precision available for others. There is a Feat called RUIN which has a prefix also. AKA Deaths Ruin, Builders Ruin. They grant the same ability as Epic Precision but only for the specified prefix. AKA Deaths=Undead, Builders=Constructs.

I had opened a DM question thread that was answered by a DM and was told they would bring up having the feat implemented IG some more with QC as with all things the issues of balance and power creep must be addressed. Just thought that might help the discussion some!

[grunts]

To me this topic is a lot like the weapon master one. Encouraging more people to abuse HIPS is counterproductive. Many feats require a 21 class level commitment, 10 rogue levels is nothing.

[Blackman D]

not sure what prc you are referring to but feel free to post a link for it

So slightly on topic about making Epic Precision available for others. There is a Feat called RUIN which has a prefix also. AKA Deaths Ruin, Builders Ruin. They grant the same ability as Epic Precision but only for the specified prefix. AKA Deaths=Undead, Builders=Constructs.

I had opened a DM question thread that was answered by a DM and was told they would bring up having the feat implemented IG some more with QC as with all things the issues of balance and power creep must be addressed. Just thought that might help the discussion some!

that hit a bit of a stand still, no real final answer to it but most are leaning towards no, so dont give up too many hopes

[Thorsson]

Is Dark Lantern a PRC you would like to have both regarding crippling strike and as anew rogue PRC?

Given, as I already said, that I suggested it before, yes. It means playing a Spy rather than a Thief; quite a different metric. It also means sneak builds are possible for those that don't have Rogue as a Favored Class.

Surely it needs changing compared to the Kaedrin iteration, but however it's done it opens up more possibilities. I don't understand why people are against this IN PRINCIPLE, when sneak builds are hardly the most broken thing on this server...

[Thorsson]

To me this topic is a lot like the weapon master one. Encouraging more people to abuse HIPS is counterproductive. Many feats require a 21 class level commitment, 10 rogue levels is nothing.

21 levels can truly be held up as a unique feat. 10 for a feat that doesn't exist in PnP? Not the same thing at all.

[mrm3ntalist]

Surely it needs changing compared to the Kaedrin iteration, but however it's done it opens up more possibilities. I don't understand why people are against this IN PRINCIPLE, when sneak builds are hardly the most broken thing on this server...

It is just that some see things differently. There is nothing wrong with that.

[Thorsson]

[... but levels 1-20 it should not be that difficult..

Levels 1-2 shouldn't be that difficult for anything. Nevertheless, until you get HiPS (which is level 13 at the earliest for Assassins) sneak builds suck.

[Thorsson]

Surely it needs changing compared to the Kaedrin iteration, but however it's done it opens up more possibilities. I don't understand why people are against this IN PRINCIPLE, when sneak builds are hardly the most broken thing on this server...

It is just that some see things differently. There is nothing wrong with that.

Sure, They can be WRONG if they want. Just do it somewhere else.

[Snarfy]

I've never seen so many straw men in such a short space.

Sure, They can be WRONG if they want. Just do it somewhere else.

Example of a straw man attack:

- Presenting someone who defends a position poorly as the defender, then denying that person's arguments—thus giving the appearance that every upholder of that position (and thus the position itself) has been defeated.

Did someone say something about Dark Lantern? I'd take a toned down version of that any day over easing the requirements for EP...

[mrm3ntalist]

Surely it needs changing compared to the Kaedrin iteration, but however it's done it opens up more possibilities. I don't understand why people are against this IN PRINCIPLE, when sneak builds are hardly the most broken thing on this server...

It is just that some see things differently. There is nothing wrong with that.

Sure, They can be WRONG if they want. Just do it somewhere else.

Why are you so obsessed about right or wrong?

[Aelcar]

Did someone say something about Dark Lantern? I'd take a toned down version of that any day over easing the requirements for EP...

There's no need to tone down Dark Lantern, it's fine as is.

Agreed on EP.

Stuff like Dread Commando and Nightsong Infiltrator is conversely too strong, in my opinion. But I don't see Dark Lantern as a problem at all.