Comic: The Economic system and why Karond is so rich...

[Shad]

Now this is not PvP server, and any items are not really considerable impact on anything. In PvE one could go alright even with plain stick, and in mass event one have only that impact that ones RP provide, no matter mechanically one can slay all monsters involved in event drinking coffee, or not.

So only ones for whom it should really matter are perfectionalists, who want their character sheets and combat log show kindly arranged digits, and rare pvp players, thats my opinion.

You're living in a dream world. If items only mattered to perfectionists this thread would've died off long ago and the auction forums would be a ghost town. Items effect everything including RP(especially in Bloodlusts events lol). You're also greatly undervaluing +2 vs. +4, that is a +10% hit chance with every attack. That's huge.

People think it is important. The thing is - it aren't. The most in Bloodlust's - there decisions are what matters. In most events in general it matters how impressive, quality and consistent RP is. Wrong thread to tell that though, lol. But at least would like to remind that there is other ways then striving for dreamlike equality, which nowhere in online games could be, because all times and people and circumstances would be different.

[Mendoza]

Speaking of the enchanting system, this is more or less it, with the addition of vamp regen +1 at an ES cost of 14 or so and that one can stack any bonus except bonus damage onto the same item (so, you can add +2 dex and +2 str, but not +2 acid with +1 cold damage) as well as some limit on spell slots stacking. ES is enchantment slot cost, and each item is capped at 20 ES points.

I'll forward my suggestion in full, exercising caution in the system in regards to balance. What do you think about something like this?

Hidden: show

[th]Enchantment Type[/th][th]Enchantment Slot Cost[/th][th]Limit[/th][tr][td]Attack Bonus[/td][td]+1 ab = 1, +2 ab = 2, +3 ab = 4, +4 ab = 6[/td][td]+4[/td][/tr][tr][td]Attack bonus vs Race/Alignment[/td][td]+1 ab = 1, +2 ab = 2, +3 ab = 3, +4 ab = 4[/td][td]+4[/td][/tr][tr][td]Enchantment[/td][td]+1 EB = 1, +2 EB = 3, +3 EB = 6, +4 EB = 10[/td][td]+4[/td][/tr][tr][td]Enchantment vs Race/Alignment[/td][td]+1 EB = 1, +2 EB = 2, +3 EB = 4, +4 EB = 6[/td][td]+4[/td][/tr][tr][td]Damage Bonus (physical or elemental)[/td][td]1 = 3, 2 = 7, D4 = 12, 3 = 18[/td][td]+3[/td][/tr][tr][td]Regeneration[/td][td]+1 = 10 (cloaks only)[/td][td]+1[/td][/tr][tr][td]Keen[/td][td]8[/td][td]N/A[/td][/tr][tr][td]Ability Bonus[/td][td]1 = 4, 2 = 9, 3 = 15[/td][td]+3[/td][/tr][tr][td]Skill Bonus[/td][td]+1 = 2, +2 = 5, +3 = 8[/td][td]+3[/td][/tr][tr][td]AC[/td][td]+1 = 1, +2 = 6, +3 = 12, +4 = 20[/td][td]+4[/td][/tr][tr][td]AC vs Race/Alignment/Physical Damage[/td][td]+1 = 1, +2 = 3, +3 = 6, +4 = 10[/td][td]+4[/td][/tr][tr][td]Single Spell Slot[/td][td]lvl1 = 3, lvl2 = 5, lvl3 = 7, lvl4 = 9, lvl5 = 11[/td][td]Level 5[/td][/tr][tr][td]Bonus Feat[/td][td]9-15 depending on feat[/td][td]N/A[/td][/tr][tr][td]Cast Spell[/td][td]1/day = 10, 2/day = 15, 3/day = 20[/td][td]3 uses[/td][/tr] Addendum:

The spells per day should most of all be offensive low-level spells. All with low CL. Since we already released +4 ability spells for some careless reason they may be allowed, but absolutely no flame weapons or other buffs IMO. Let casters be casters.

The feats need to be changed according to their use. Stealthy for example only costs 10 ES currently and is the cheapest one. It really needs to be the most expensive one. Skill feats are preferable to saves feats, obviously. The reasoning is that the skill cap is higher at +50 compared to +20, so players won't realistically reach the skill cap. Hence, skill feats is far less likely to let you circumvent the cap like it will with saves. I'm not sure about the spell focus feats (currently allowed), but any other spell or combat feats should not be allowed to be crafted.

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Changes from the current system:

• Reworked costs on most things
• Removed vamp reg.
• Removed bonus slots 6-9.
• Removed specific alignment EB and AB (such as vs. chaotic evil), as noone will use these since group alignment is available (such as vs. evil)
• Removed specific alignment AC (such as vs. chaotic evil), as noone will use these since group alignment is available (such as vs. evil)
• Removed abilities with costs that exceeded 20 ES, as they wouldn't be craftable anyway.
• Capped skills at +3

Materials suggestion:

I strongly believe we need to change the custom material properties. We also need to assign an ES cost to all the 66 materials. As such, any armors, shields or weapons should come with less ES points than normal materials, due to their inherent bonuses. A suggestion is an ES cost of 6 for darksteel weapons if we want to make materials better. Why 6? Because 6 is the ES cost difference between the two highest damage enchantments. As such, you could gain 0.5 bonus damage by using a darksteel weapon instead of a normal one. Or if we don't want to premiere materials, set the cost at 8 so a normal weapon may lose out on 0,5 dmg, but gain 2 more ES points to spend elsewhere etc.

[/spoiler]

Yes!! This ^^ is what we need. Obviously the above system is not perfect and would need some tweaking, but I think this is definitely a step in the right direction. Only issue is, as others have pointed out, how long is this realistically going to take to push through the QC system? I would argue that this needs to be shot up to #1 on the list of priorities to get in game. Merchants are great, but this will solve so many more issues that new merchants cannot and never will be able to fix.

Also, if there is anyway I can help get this in game, please PM me and let me know. I think it's a little silly to recommend something be put in game ASAP without offering to help get it there.

[Karond]

Not every veteran obviously.... However, most of the best gear is controlled by the same couple veterans, a fact Karond can confirm.

To an extent, yes. This is an ancient argument, and when I started playing people kept bringing it up over and over on older players like Molag_Bal. The argument is recurrent, but the richest ones change. Much of the best gear is controlled by myself, a few loot-robots and 2-3 individuals that have DM rewards in the double digits (some may be inherited), from what I've seen at least. This is when it comes to amount, but some people are sitting on a spectacularly epic item and not much else too.

[thids]

Considering the power of items on BG? It's not crazy by any means. As for the infinite part, crafting.

Okay. What do you consider adequate power levels for PCs in the range of level 15, in D&D (pick your edition, but it should probably be 3.5e).

Right? Though our sheets might say level 30, we are supposed to consider—from a IC standpoint—to be level 15 (halving levels overall). That what is thrown around as such.

Well, let's see. A CL 12 wizard can craft a +4 natural armor amulet. A CL 10 wizard can craft belt of hill giant strength +6. A CL 15 wizard can craft a +5 weapon, if the weapon has other properties on it guess what? That doesn't add to the CL requirement, the higher of the two is taken into account... etc.

So, taking craft wondrous items rules from pnp into consideration, you can see that at level 15 PC's can be found wielding items of power above the level of those found on BG. In fact the only weapon property which has a higher CL requirement than level 15 is Vorpal. Level 15 in pnp is quite high, don't let the silly epic level situation we have on the server fool you.

[Lag]

Why is PnP always the refferance point? I think its rather sad if this is only acting as a PnP simulator to people, it is a video game, based of fractions of a ruleset for PnP yes, but people are using it like an argument that things are set in stone often and its rather sad in honesty.

Wouldnt it be better if we kept an open mind towards finding a middle ground between PnP the game and the majority's interest, rather than all the debating on old rules intended for a very different media, that by no means is flawless. Might be the wrong place for it, but it seems that every topic is haunted by the PnP Police.

What is happening here? I agree with Ithilian.

[mrieder79]

Much of the best gear is controlled by myself, a few loot-robots and 2-3 individuals that have DM rewards in the double digits

[Caelin]

It's crazy that, from a RP standpoint, I'm more likely to find an epic item tucked away in a ...

Is it not crazy that the most powerful magic items any of our Characters can wield—or should be wielding, legally—would be available for purchase at a Merchant, and...and infinite number of them?!? Just saying....

That's not what I'm proposing though so please don't be snide. I'm not saying put the most powerful weapons in merchants in BG. I'm saying put weapons in that at least *approach* the most powerful weapons. People are out there with with some relatively insanely powerful things. For the +4 longsword with 1d6 fire damage + 1d6 acid damage someone's carrying around, I'm saying let's at least put a +4 longsword in. From a RP perspective not everyone will be able to afford such a weapon, so while mechanically there might be an infinite amount the reality is it doesn't matter.

[Caelin]

Also I'm truly struggling to understand why adding merchants to the game would/should take longer than adding a balanced crafting system. I mean holy crap. Set guidelines for item power/price. Let the builders make some. Someone checks and approves them and you put them in. How hard could that be?

Merchants are already a part of the game. There are supposedly already guidelines in place for item power that DMs can give out. This should be the quick and easy solution. With a little will we could have some basic epic merchants on the server inside of a week, two at most?

[mrieder79]

We are adding merchants. Karond and I are both currently making shops. I have a second in the chute after the first gets finished. The idea is low power epic level stuff.

[Caelin]

We are adding merchants. Karond and I are both currently making shops. I have a second in the chute after the first gets finished. The idea is low power epic level stuff.

That's awesome, and thank you for the time you're spending doing that. I think it's the right move. I don't understand the people who think that adding a crafting system would somehow be better, faster *and* easier than just adding some more merchants.

[chad878262]

We are adding merchants. Karond and I are both currently making shops. I have a second in the chute after the first gets finished. The idea is low power epic level stuff.

That's awesome, and thank you for the time you're spending doing that. I think it's the right move. I don't understand the people who think that adding a crafting system would somehow be better, faster *and* easier than just adding some more merchants.

The two are not mutually exclusive and both are being worked to get in.

[Steve]

Well, let's see. A CL 12 wizard can craft a +4 natural armor amulet. A CL 10 wizard can craft belt of hill giant strength +6. A CL 15 wizard can craft a +5 weapon, if the weapon has other properties on it guess what? That doesn't add to the CL requirement, the higher of the two is taken into account... etc.

So, taking craft wondrous items rules from pnp into consideration, you can see that at level 15 PC's can be found wielding items of power above the level of those found on BG. In fact the only weapon property which has a higher CL requirement than level 15 is Vorpal. Level 15 in pnp is quite high, don't let the silly epic level situation we have on the server fool you.

So translate that to BGTSCC, where level 30 means level 15 (always halved), and that would be a CL 24 Wizard can craft a +4 Natural Armor Amulet, a CL 20 Wizard can craft a belt of...*snip* a CL 30 Wizard could craft a +5 weapon.

So considering we are at +4 EB, with +3 Ability and +2/+3 Skill bonuses being considered an Epic Item, currently, on BGTSCC...it's kinda already in a good place, yes?

The problem is that Choice and Availability, still is...difficult, to be diplomatic about it. NPC Merchants fix the availability, and a NPC Enchanter would fix choice.

So we need both. END OF DISCUSSION!!!

[DM Dialectic]

We are adding merchants. Karond and I are both currently making shops. I have a second in the chute after the first gets finished. The idea is low power epic level stuff.

You both and QC rock!

[Passiflora]

What? Veterans got all the good stuff?

....I do have that fancy +2 to all saves necklace I kept since 2009.


Everyone, keep that saliva in your respective mouths. I know it shines, but I won't give it away.

[Ithilan]

What? Veterans got all the good stuff?

....I do have that fancy +2 to all saves necklace I kept since 2009.


Everyone, keep that saliva in your respective mouths. I know it shines, but I won't give it away.

Ooo! Shiny ones! So the rumors are true! Damn loot hoarders