Sneak matters: Epic Precision

[seawied]

( High BAB, 2d6SA and movement speed increase is very big for a 3lvl dip - speed is the best defense of a rogue after the combination of AC and epic dodge).

I second this.

My current sneak character recently RCR'd and dropped some movement speed in favor of higher DPS. I didn't think I would miss that movement speed nearly as much.

Not only is it good for defense, but it's absolutely critical for positioning. As a sneak, you need to get in the correct position to land a sneak attack otherwise you are practically deadweight.

If my build was not already pigeon holed into 4 classes, neverwinter nine or wilderness stalker would have been a fantastic addition to it because of that mobility boast.

[Thorsson]

It's a total of 5 levels...

See? There you just shot yourself in the foot. There's no more sneak dice after level 3, so for sneak purposes it's a 3 level class.

In any case it doesn't answer the issue, which is that high BAB sneak classes are few and far between. IB doesn't have any sneak dice at all. Both BodyGuard and Wilderness Stalker have quite specific roles (the names are dead giveaways). We could do with some different classes.

And forcing sneakers to take 10 levels of Rogue so that they are not totally useless against a pile of opponents seems to have no inherent merit. At least I've seen none posted so far.

[mrm3ntalist]

It's a total of 5 levels...

See? There you just shot yourself in the foot. There's no more sneak dice after level 3, so for sneak purposes it's a 3 level class.

It is still a 5lvl PRC. If it is not "useful" after level 3 thats another matter/

In any case it doesn't answer the issue, which is that high BAB sneak classes are few and far between. IB doesn't have any sneak dice at all. Both BodyGuard and Wilderness Stalker have quite specific roles (the names are dead giveaways). We could do with some different classes.

From what I seen in the builder there is only one other high BAB rogue PRC implemented. How many is "many" for you?

And forcing sneakers to take 10 levels of Rogue so that they are not totally useless against a pile of opponents seems to have no inherent merit. At least I've seen none posted so far.

You actually need 10 levels of rogue AND 20 levels to get into the epics. So having to commit to 10levels of rogue is not as bad as the 20 levels you need to get in order to get Epic presicion.

EDIT: The High BAB are two, Elite Commando and Nightsong enforcer, unless i missed one again

[Deathgrowl]

As a player of something as subpar as rogue20/sd10, I can safely say that there is no reason for sneaks to complain about AB issues here.

[Boddynock]

And forcing sneakers to take 10 levels of Rogue so that they are not totally useless against a pile of opponents seems to have no inherent merit. At least I've seen none posted so far.

This is the crux of it right here isn't it? I have read this thread multiple times and I am still convinced the only meaningful change that would happen is that more people would be able to access more content with the builds and playstyles they enjoy, and feel useful or like they are contributing while doing it. And it is going to take a whole mountain of evidence to convince me that something that has that much potential benefit for the PLAYERS with no legitimate perceptible balance issues is a bad thing.

[Deathgrowl]

This is the crux of it right here isn't it? I have read this thread multiple times and I am still convinced the only meaningful change that would happen is that more people would be able to access more content with the builds and playstyles they enjoy, and feel useful or like they are contributing while doing it. And it is going to take a whole mountain of evidence to convince me that something that has that much potential benefit for the PLAYERS with no legitimate perceptible balance issues is a bad thing.

There are some legitimate balance concerns that have already been mentioned. A suggestion was to allow this for 7SA as a requirement, for instance, but rogue3/assassin9 is just twelve levels and gets hips and death attack. Then you. Have 18 remaining levels to do as you please with, and I can personally think of some very scary uses for those 18 levels.

The wiz/assassin/ek/atrickster builds would become very terrifying, and would really no longer have a rock for their scissor. Someone already mentioned gishes being too powerful, something I completely agree with.

It's unfortunately not realistic to discuss power increases to encourage new ideas for character concepts without also including mentions for the ways those changes can be used for making ugly powerbuilds.

I won't argue against the sentiments about dragon druids and favoured souls that have been mentioned (I have played a dragon druid, and it is beyond ridiculous), though one might wonder why no one has mentioned the bard in the same manner (soloing the balor naked...). But just because some classes/combinations are currently overpowered, doesn't mean that those are the standards by which we balance. If anything, it would mean those classes/combinations need nerfing, but those are discussions for different topics.

And there are sentiments that this wouldn't take anything away from the rogue, which is true in a sense. However, it does rather severely cheapen Epic Precision and make investment into rogue more redundant. I know this isn't an argument that people seem to like, but I think it's worth adding to the consideration.

[The Whistler]

If that's the prevalent mindset within the QC, I can definitely see why you'd spare yourself the embarassment and make the forum private.

The only thing that was embarassing, was the playerbase of ToA's opinion of you. In the public forums.

Bringing my street cred on a server that's been dead for more than 2 years into the discussion without any citations whatsoever in lieu of a real argument. O I am laffin. Getting a little desperate, are we ?

@mrm3ntalist Yeah, I don't think anyone counts Broken Blade as an actual sneak class. The prerequisites are downright retarded, not to mention that it's completely neutered by anything with 6 DR or more.

It's a pretty good PrC, to be honest. High pre-requs, but several others (like Assassin) have none, so there you go.

Look, I know you feel an overwhelming urge to play devil's advocate and see people throwing down the gauntlet everywhere you go but as a friend, I am asking you to stop. You are quite frankly embarrassing yourself if you think IB is even remotely useful in the environment of BGTSCC.

Its signature bleed is quite literally worthless against bosses unless you somehow have cold iron/silver weapons with decent enchantments and typical mobs just die before you can ramp up your DoT on them.

Bodyguard is a cool class to dip but it's just that, a dip.

It's a total of 5 levels...

Someone already corrected you here so I'll just move on.

WS is just 3d6 SA class with some cool utility thrown in. I'm talking about a level 10 PRC with at least 4d6 SA, like Nightsong Enforcer.

Which is not Dread Commando, nor Infiltrator. The ones I mentioned in the post you reacted on...

Infiltrator is quite literally enforcer lite if you discount it getting HiPS at level 10 . Are you even trying anymore.

I mean I understand the server's vehemently anti-party by its level design but calling a class that grants a group force multiplier OP ? Sounds to me like there's an agenda involved or you're quite literally clueless. But it couldn't be the latter now, could it

Respond to me if you desperately need to have the last word, but I'll reply to you with PMs from now on.

[Rasael]

Aelcar and Whistler, take it to the PM's or lay-off. If you cannot write posts without referencing each other in the personal sense then a time-out is necessary.

[Blackman D]

i have an IB and shes fun D:

rogues vs bosses are a bit useless in general so its hard to say IB sucks vs a boss when thats just the nature of a rogue attacking something with insanely high detection so they cant get in sneaks or land feints...

the bleed does suck against anything with DR yes but feint mastery is nice still and IB is probably taken most by people who enjoy using feint so they dont have to hips every time to attack something

i think IB is one of those classes that you have to want to use for what its basically intended for, not something you use with the thought that you are gonna become OP, but thats just me

[Aelcar]

ramblings

Good joke.

I'm sorry you're burned out mate, but it isn't my problem.

The only thing that is embarrassing here is how you didn't manage to learn jack shit when you played this game for...how long?

ONE: Devil's advocate for defending IB?! When Ro/Asn/IB is considered the "standard" way to go build in view of AC, AB, SA/DA dice, Feint options and spellbook? Why do you post, again? Aside from picking up a fight, that is...cause you're burned out...

TWO: someone already corrected who corrected me, so go back and read.

THREE: Agenda...clueless...or maybe I have an opinion? Which, it seems, is more informed than yours, if you think Infiltrator and Enforcer are the same, and if you think they're alright the way they are?

Yes, pass to PMs, so that I can finally reply the way you deserve.
You and the others like you think that the NWN community is here to take your outbursts when you people burn out, and that you can just piss on everyone else.

But it's a mistake.

Go ahead and PM me. Check out how that goes.

i have an IB and shes fun D:

rogues vs bosses are a bit useless in general so its hard to say IB sucks vs a boss when thats just the nature of a rogue attacking something with insanely high detection so they cant get in sneaks or land feints...

the bleed does suck against anything with DR yes but feint mastery is nice still and IB is probably taken most by people who enjoy using feint so they dont have to hips every time to attack something

i think IB is one of those classes that you have to want to use for what its basically intended for, not something you use with the thought that you are gonna become OP, but thats just me

don't bother, man. When one enters a thread on sneaks with "but Druids...!!!", it's clear that this isn't something he wants to hear.

[DM Ioulaum]

Locked. Start a new topic and keep the personal conflict out of it.

PM's forthcoming.