Clarification of Surface / Underdark Race PvP Rules

[PJtheFey]

It would be good if in the PvP section the UD Race on the Surface rules were clarified.

The current rules on the website state (I've bolded the parts in question):

With regards to "Kill On Sight" (KOS) rules, where the PVP out rules are suspended? Only DMs may rule that a character, class, race, or situation is "KOS." Currently there are only three things that are KOS:

- Summoned creatures (including evil animal companions [on the surface]; but not normal familiars or animal companions), and undead are KOS (yes, this includes angels). The SUMMONER/ANIMATOR has not consented to PVP, however, and must still be given roleplay before PVP occurs.
- Drow and Tannurrak races on the surface are KOS. All Surface races in the UD, outside of the city of Sshamath or Varalla's Passage area, are KOS.

... however a few weeks ago I discovered that this is not the case when my Svirfneblin got PvPed to death without RP. We consulted a DM and DM Pun Pun ruled that all UD races on the surface were KoS. This was somewhat problematic as when the character came to the surface to for RP purposes, we were expecting that the rules in the PvP section were up to date.

The character has since been RCRed since her RP storyline died, but it'd be good for future players to know just in case they were thinking of having their non-Drow, Non-Tannurrak UD race character venture to the surface.

[Nyeleni]

This is news to me too. And a bit unfair. How do you differentiate a deep imaskari from a very pale human? And any genasi for that matter?

This will leave only svirfneblins and duergar on the additional KoS list for sure...

[NCrawler]

From this thread: http://www.bgtscc.net/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=3170

Underdark players on the surface, and surface players within the tunnels of the Underdark (excluding the city of Sshamath), are consenting to PvP. They may be killed on sight.

[PJtheFey]

From this thread: http://www.bgtscc.net/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=3170

Underdark players on the surface, and surface players within the tunnels of the Underdark (excluding the city of Sshamath), are consenting to PvP. They may be killed on sight.

You have to keep reading. The part I quoted was a clarification/update to those rules.

It says just above the part I quoted "PvP and KOS clarifications from Maecius, logged here, to be integrated into the OP at future time." You quoted the OP.

[matelener]

Can somone explain to me why svirfneblins are a KoS race? It makes no sense to me lorewise.
While surfaces could hear rumours of drows raiding the surface, almost nobody would know anything about deep gnomes. And if they did, then they'd know they're not an evil race.

[PJtheFey]

Can somone explain to me why svirfneblins are a KoS race? It makes no sense to me lorewise.
While surfaces could hear rumours of drows raiding the surface, almost nobody would know anything about deep gnomes. And if they did, then they'd know they're not an evil race.

I'm inclined to agree... All I can come up with is that they are black (or gray) gnomes.

[NCrawler]

The Forgotten Realms Wiki says it best:

Deep gnome relations with other races are colored by the impression of most surface-dwelling races that deep gnomes, like the duergar or drow, are a cruel and vindictive relative of their surface cousins. This is, in fact, untrue, and while often suspicious and sullen, deep gnomes are a largely agreeable people. Deep gnomes, for their part, are not particularly eager to correct outsiders of their error and for the most part would rather be left alone.

[Rasael]

The Forgotten Realms Wiki says it best:

Deep gnome relations with other races are colored by the impression of most surface-dwelling races that deep gnomes, like the duergar or drow, are a cruel and vindictive relative of their surface cousins. This is, in fact, untrue, and while often suspicious and sullen, deep gnomes are a largely agreeable people. Deep gnomes, for their part, are not particularly eager to correct outsiders of their error and for the most part would rather be left alone.

Good find!

[Nyeleni]

The Forgotten Realms Wiki says it best:

Deep gnome relations with other races are colored by the impression of most surface-dwelling races that deep gnomes, like the duergar or drow, are a cruel and vindictive relative of their surface cousins. This is, in fact, untrue, and while often suspicious and sullen, deep gnomes are a largely agreeable people. Deep gnomes, for their part, are not particularly eager to correct outsiders of their error and for the most part would rather be left alone.

Still that must be under the supposition that anyone on the surface would recognize a deep gnome. Even gnomes themselves are a weird occurence on the surface. Only places like Gullykin would recognize something amiss with a deep gnome imo.

[NCrawler]

The Forgotten Realms Wiki says it best:

Deep gnome relations with other races are colored by the impression of most surface-dwelling races that deep gnomes, like the duergar or drow, are a cruel and vindictive relative of their surface cousins. This is, in fact, untrue, and while often suspicious and sullen, deep gnomes are a largely agreeable people. Deep gnomes, for their part, are not particularly eager to correct outsiders of their error and for the most part would rather be left alone.

Still that must be under the supposition that anyone on the surface would recognize a deep gnome. Even gnomes themselves are a weird occurence on the surface. Only places like Gullykin would recognize something amiss with a deep gnome imo.

True, but there are some of us who have either been to the UD or were captured by a drow that had one of the wormy little gnomes in tow and were in fact attacked by the vile little creature. First impressions are everything and there are some who have a bad first impression of the disgusting little worms.

[DM Theophanies]

PJtheFey, the quote from Maecius is in the context of a post from a previous HDM which was to be implimented 2 years ago into the PvP rules. It has been implimented and they have been revised. The up to date version of the rules are on the first post. My apologies for any confusion.

As for the why, it's part of the inherent risk for going to the other side. Also deep gnomes are generally untrusting of other races and would generally hide out in their own cities and holes. I would find the actuality of a deep gnome going to the surface even less likely than a drow given their inherent natures.

As the rules dictate, a player of a deep gnome can mask their identity. Players are also welcome to RP that they do not know what it is or think it is a regular gnome if they so wish but that is up to the discretion of the player and if the character is unmasked or they discover it is a deep gnome, it is KOS when on the surface.

Finally, in my opinion (not the teams) we do not have the landscape to differentiate deep gnomes from other races in the UD. We have one city (where they are generally welcomed not enslaved) and an upperdark in the works. If they were not to be KOS in certain parts of the surface, then there would need to be a trade off in the underdark. Yet we have no traditional drow or deugar cities. So in my opinion, the way things are currently may not be ideal, but it works for what we have.

Underdark players on the surface, and surface players within the tunnels of the Underdark (excluding the city of Sshamath), are consenting to PvP. They may be killed on sight.
Players outfitted in such a way that hides their skin, eyes, and other identifying features (hoods are not acceptable for this purpose) must be RPed into PVP as per the PVP rules above. Patterns of speech, accents, body language, and things of the sort are discerned only through roleplay. In order to figure out whether a Drow is in fact a Drow you must spend the time uncovering it through RP: You may not metagame use of the player's bio, the fact that the name sounds funny, or the drow's "size." The same applies for Surfacers within the Underdark tunnels.

[PJtheFey]

That's fine, my point is that the current rule set is a bit confusing when you have the OP and then an additional post that says it's a clarification that will be added to the op at a later date, only the op was actually already updated and the amended rule is the one that is actually out of date.

You make a good point about Svirfneblin being unlikely to be on the surface, but by the same token any PC has to be breaking the mold for the race if they are living in a city that is not their own as second class citizens. Eventually at least some of the residents are going to be like "getting kicked around all the time sucks, I wonder if there is someplace better."