Paladin Questions

[DM Golem]

The only aspect of Forgotten Realms Paladin Code (which is defined to many different degrees in different canon Forgotten Realms lore sources) that the DM Team enforces on this server is the Paladin Code from the Player's Handbook 3.5, 44:

Code of Conduct: A paladin must be of lawful good alignment and loses all class abilities if she ever willingly commits an evil act. Additionally, a paladin’s code requires that she respect legitimate authority, act with honor (not lying, not cheating, not using poison, and so forth), help those in need (provided they do not use the help for evil or chaotic ends), and punish those who harm or threaten innocents.
Associates: While she may adventure with characters of any good or neutral alignment, a paladin will never knowingly associate with evil characters, nor will she continue an association with someone who consistently offends her moral code. A paladin may accept only henchmen, followers, or cohorts who are lawful good.

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This PHB Paladin Code (+ Dogma) is the basic Paladin Code that the DM Team enforces.

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The DM Team also enforces Paladin Code > Dogma in conflicts between the two and Good > Illilegimate Lawful Authority (an evil authority or evil act of authority even if it is from the Paladin's own church, patron fealty to, or dogma) in conflicts between the two that a paladin may encounter in RP.

If you have clarification questions about any aspect of the basic Paladin Code enforced quoted above, please PM the DM Team with your questions. The DM Team has posted some clarification notes below as well for public viewing.

The DM Team also recommends reading the simple definitions of alignments in the first post of this linked thread:

viewtopic.php?f=421&t=7349


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Posting this DM Response here at player request. Feel free to add/discuss/ask things for player input.

Note that historically Paladin threads have got heated. Fair warning, I will lock this and/or remove the thread if it does! But otherwise there should be no harm in a place to discuss hints and tips for playing paladins.

Interesting questions! My take:

Do Paladin's have to be trained in spell use/prayers?

They are not cast spontaneously like favoured souls cast their spells. Their spellbook is similar to clerics (and in fact has less spontaneity). So my feeling is yes, they are a result of preparation, training, and following ritual.

Do they have to belong to an order or church?

Oaths of service were a core part of second edition baseline paladin lore. While that text would be considered only flavour on our server it might be considered lorewise usual that a paladin will serve a government, a church directly, or most commonly an order: most of which serve a church.

I say usual as lone-wolf paladins exist (and in some faiths are the norm, for example Hoarite paladins, who would likely struggle to exist in the main church hierarchy) and there is no barrier to playing a PC who is one of those.

Likely there has to be some mentoring from someone somewhere, though, due to the spellcasting issue above.

Is it possible to become a Paladin by dieties choice (ie: kind of like a favored doul) or is it only with choosing that path on your own solely ( kind of more like a monk)?

Paladins are people who have felt a "call" from their god. But, not all people answer the call. So its both; you have to be called, but then you have to answer.

((EDITED by HDMs February 2017.))

[Ghost]

Paladins are people who have felt a "call" from their god. But, not all people answer the call. So its both; you have to be called, but then you have to answer.

I feel that this point may be good to elaborate on!

Players Handbook, page 43 says the following under "Background":

No one ever chooses to be a paladin. Becoming a paladin is answering a call, accepting one’s destiny. No one, no matter how diligent, can become a paladin through practice. The nature is either within one or not, and it is not possible to gain the paladin’s nature by any act of will. It is possible, however, to fail to recognize one’s own potential, or to deny one’s destiny. Occasionally, one who is called to be a paladin denies that call and pursues some other life instead.

Most paladins answer the call and begin training as adolescents. Typically, they become squires or assistants to experienced paladins, train for years, and finally set off on their own to further the causes of good and law. Other paladins, however, find their calling only later in life, after having pursued some other career. All paladins, regardless of background, recognize in each other an eternal bond that transcends culture, race, and even religion. Any two paladins, even from opposite sides of the world, consider themselves comrades.

This is of course the core, basic description and there are some nuances added by Forgotten Realms lore, but it is still an important point.

Another subject that often comes up is the paladin's code of conduct. This is also from Player's Hand Book, page 44:

Code of Conduct: A paladin must be of lawful good alignment and loses all class abilities if she ever willingly commits an evil act. Additionally, a paladin’s code requires that she respect legitimate authority, act with honor (not lying, not cheating, not using poison, and so forth), help those in need (provided they do not use the help for evil or chaotic ends), and punish those who harm or threaten innocents.

Again, this is the core, basic code of conduct of a paladin. Different gods in Forgotten Realms will obviously add more nuance.

[krimsondaddy]

So when traveling with non-lawful types should I should be trying to change their mindsets correct?

Whether to try to "convert" others IC to the paladin code and Helmite dogma is really up to the RP flavor of your character and how proselytizing he is IC, but not by the paladin code we apply and enforce on the server. Non-lawful or non-good behavior of these characters that the paladin character permits or ignores without sincerely attempting to stop it though could cause violations of the paladin code.

It really comes down to this again: Non-lawful or non-good behavior of these characters that the paladin character permits or ignores without sincerely attempting to stop it could cause violations of the paladin code. If you have specific examples that you want guidance on though, please shoot the DM team a PM.

Also I know PnP paladins can sense evil and lies. However in game such things are not listed on my sheet so I can not preform such right? It would be nice if I could meta game things like "oh i know thats a hellfire warlock so I prolly shouldnt travel with him" but then I would be metagaming which isnt fun for everyone. But then if you cant sense evil unless someone starts slicing throats with evil laughter how can you IC say that they are evil?

There is no detect evil ability or spell in game or on a paladin character sheet on our server, so no, a paladin cannot detect otherwise unknowable evil creatures as he or she can in PnP.

A paladin would likely know the following from the Player's Handbook 3.5 (as elaborated, nuanced, and clarified about in Champions of Valor and the Book of Exalted Deeds, both of which I highly recommend reading) in terms of how evil is cosmically defined, but he or she will only be able to sense what is evil in the world based off IC information that only his or her character sheet skills, lore knowledge, IC judgement, and abilities would derive.

“Evil” implies hurting, oppressing, and killing others.

[krimsondaddy]

Small quick kudos to the DMs for the help so far as well as anyone that adds valid input.

[R0ninknight]

First of all, thank you or this thread.
Also yes, paladins take it on the chin in terms of Detect Evil because historically players can not be trusted to use it responsibly for the fun of all rather than selfishly or in a metagame manner. It hurts us because socially-manipulative villains LOVE to single out and target paladins first and worst and paladins lack the skill points to compete. I would suggest giving paladins more skill points to spend on social skills to counter the lack of Detect Evil but that's just me.

1) Any tips regarding roleplaying a LG paladin of a CG diety such as Sune? What are people's thoughts on how the lawful code and chaotic dogma interact?

2) Are there sufficient numbers of typical paladin 'favored enemies' on this server? More specifically: Evil outsiders, Undead, and evil dragons? In my case I'm particularly curious about the last one since Dragonslayer is a PrC so I'm hoping there are enough dragons 'to go around' so to speak and make the PrC worthwhile.

3) Are the various Orders staunch allies with each other, do they get along literally famously, on this server or is there tensions in the lore between the knightly groups that would be common knowledge?

[DM Theophanies]

1) Along side the typical paladin code, I would recommend developing a personal code based on the dogma of Sune. It will of course still be fairly rigid but it will allow you to bridge the gap between them. Also, you could just look at what Sunites typically do (I will use appreciate beauty in painting as an example) only instead of going to paint on a whim, perhaps the paladin takes appointed time to do so. In the past I have found it easiest to set the outlook of the paladin and view things through it: orderly, rigid structure, organized. Perhaps dealing with the more chaotic followers of Sune may be part of the struggle that makes this paladin mortal, something they struggle.

2) There are quite a few undead in various areas (Gullykin Crypt, Fields of the Dead, Graveyard) as well as a few dragons around (Forest of Wyrms, Black and White Dragon). Evil outsiders are a bit more limited but they are around.

3) I will let the players field this one.

Hope this helps!

Theo

[Xanfyrst]

One thing I'd advise all future paladin players to do is to avoid creating one that has no vices and is the absolute most good hearted person ever. A paladin strives to be the beacon of Good and an inspiring example for others, but they aren't perfect. They may feel great jealousy, have a drinking problem, be prejudicial towards certain kind of people, or simply be so narrow minded in their crusade against evil that they forget the people around them. Things like that.

A paladin is basically on a never ending quest of self-improvement. It's the single most forgotten aspect about paladin. A paladin that isn't constantly improving themselves as Good being is failing as paladin, in my opinion.

[R0ninknight]

I agree. There should definitely be an observable difference between a level 1 paladin and a level 30 paladin morally and it should be something another character that has known said paladin character for more than 10 levels can remark on. You gotta be careful though that the early level paladins are still Good people- it should be a matter of degree over time. Make sure paladins are always still lawful good and not lawful neutral turning into lawful good. In my life, not on this PW so far, I've seen an awful, awful lot of Lawful Neutral 'paladins' running around. In my opinion its one of if not the most difficult class to portray as a player in terms of RP; especially for multiclass characters. I happen to enjoy that degree of challenge and I also like the concepts that can be multiclassed into it (though some are stupidly disallowed by DnD like paladin/bard) but I also look to others in these forums and such to help me out as a player. The smartest thing I've found when it comes to portraying a paladin is to be a humble -player-. That's right; I said be humble OOC as in who someone is as a RL person will matter quite a bit when someone, especially at first, takes on RPing this class. Its one reason its such a controversial class for tabletop groups, too. I've never seen a person with a notable ego problem in RL portray a paladin even close to correctly over a long period no matter how hard they try to pretend. That is, of course, something RPers don't like to think about much for good reason- transference. Writers write what they know and the same goes for roleplayers- even while pretending the player is the baseline for the fantasy. So, again, I say the best advice at first is 'try to be a humble player'.

On a related note, I've received some PMs here about this thread that I have found helpful and I'd like to state my appreciation. Thank you.

[Boddynock]

Serious suggestion! Paladins should get +1 to sense motive checks per paladin level to replace detect evil, similar to bards getting +1 lore per bard level. Thoughts?

[Boddynock]

1) Any tips regarding roleplaying a LG paladin of a CG diety such as Sune? What are people's thoughts on how the lawful code and chaotic dogma interact?

Lawful means that you strictly adhere to a code, or dogma, it doesn't insinuate that that dogma is lawful. People use the term "doing something religiously" to imply that you do something almost like clockwork. This is what a paladin is, they follow the dogma of their god religiously. If a CG god allows paladins though, that paladin would likely commit acts some may consider chaotic that really aren't, because they are lawfully following the teachings of their church. This is especially true when the teachings of a church contradict the laws of the land. A paladin should strive to follow all laws as possible, but the church comes first. Can you imagine how many legal issues a paladin of Hoar must get into when he is lawfully following his god's dogma?

TL;DR- Lawful good doesn't imply that all laws are created equal in the eyes of the church, and therefore the paladin.

[R0ninknight]

I would make the ratio lower than 1 per level (1 per 3 levels, maybe?) but I LOVE THIS IDEA.

Thanks for that advice. I will definitely keep it in mind for my Sunite paladin.

[Boddynock]

I mean why one per three levels? It can't be abused as players are not required to go along with skill rolls without a DM present, and with a DM present you can only use it at thier discretion. Sense motive isn't exactly an OP skill anyway, but...paladins are supposed to be very good at sniffing out shady folk.

[thids]

1) Any tips regarding roleplaying a LG paladin of a CG diety such as Sune? What are people's thoughts on how the lawful code and chaotic dogma interact?

Lawful means that you strictly adhere to a code, or dogma, it doesn't insinuate that that dogma is lawful. People use the term "doing something religiously" to imply that you do something almost like clockwork. This is what a paladin is, they follow the dogma of their god religiously. If a CG god allows paladins though, that paladin would likely commit acts some may consider chaotic that really aren't, because they are lawfully following the teachings of their church. This is especially true when the teachings of a church contradict the laws of the land. A paladin should strive to follow all laws as possible, but the church comes first. Can you imagine how many legal issues a paladin of Hoar must get into when he is lawfully following his god's dogma?

TL;DR- Lawful good doesn't imply that all laws are created equal in the eyes of the church, and therefore the paladin.

Chaos and Law are not relative concepts in FR, just like good and evil aren't relative concepts. If you zealously and diligently commit chaotic acts in the name of your god, you are still committing chaotic deeds and qualify for chaotic points.

[Boddynock]

1) Any tips regarding roleplaying a LG paladin of a CG diety such as Sune? What are people's thoughts on how the lawful code and chaotic dogma interact?

Lawful means that you strictly adhere to a code, or dogma, it doesn't insinuate that that dogma is lawful. People use the term "doing something religiously" to imply that you do something almost like clockwork. This is what a paladin is, they follow the dogma of their god religiously. If a CG god allows paladins though, that paladin would likely commit acts some may consider chaotic that really aren't, because they are lawfully following the teachings of their church. This is especially true when the teachings of a church contradict the laws of the land. A paladin should strive to follow all laws as possible, but the church comes first. Can you imagine how many legal issues a paladin of Hoar must get into when he is lawfully following his god's dogma?

TL;DR- Lawful good doesn't imply that all laws are created equal in the eyes of the church, and therefore the paladin.

Chaos and Law are not relative concepts in FR, just like good and evil aren't relative concepts. If you zealously and diligently commit chaotic acts in the name of your god, you are still committing chaotic deeds and qualify for chaotic points.

Except that strictly committing acts in accordance with the teachings of your church is NOT chaotic, it is lawful, even if the dogma of the church is chaotic you are lawfully following it's tenets. The same laws do not apply to citizens of Amn as the citizens of the Gate, the same stands true for laws pertaining to paladin orders. A paladin order will have it's own laws.

You are right that law and chaos are less abstract in D&D than they are in real life, but you can't assume that there is some universal law that applies to all sentient beings on Toril equally. Laws are a byproduct of culture, and the church is a very different culture residing within the boundaries of other cultures.

If it worked any other way, then a paladin of any god that was not LG, including Sune and Helm, is destined to become a fallen paladin as their church's dogma systematically pushes them further toward CG or LN, respectively.

[thids]

Except that strictly committing acts in accordance with the teachings of your church is NOT chaotic, it is lawful, even if the dogma of the church is chaotic you are lawfully following it's tenets.

No, it is not. That would mean that the concepts of law and chaos are relative, which they are not.

The same laws do not apply to citizens of Amn as the citizens of the Gate, the same stands true for laws pertaining to paladin orders. A paladin order will have it's own laws.

You are right that law and chaos are less abstract in D&D than they are in real life, but you can't assume that there is some universal law that applies to all sentient beings on Toril equally. Laws are a byproduct of culture, and the church is a very different culture residing within the boundaries of other cultures.

Paladins follow the laws that are just, and try to change those that are not. The core concept of what is lawful and just is the same for each and every paladin, with slight variations depending on their gods. Those slight variations are most certainly not something that includes permission to act chaotically and commit chaotic acts. There is a reason why Sune is the only Chaotic deity which allows paladins, her dogma has nothing chaotic in it. There is a god of justice in forgotten realms, him and his dogma pretty much set the tone for what should be lawful and just for all paladins. Breaking an unjust law will not cause a paladin to fall or even require atonement, as long as breaking that law was his last option. If you want an example of those slight variations then consider it something along the lines of this:

A paladin of Sune might think that it is absolutely necessary to introduce a law that obliges proprietors of inns and taverns to provide a free bath for homeless people once a month. That paladin might work towards implementing such law in the city/land they are in.

On the other hand, a paladin of Torm couldn't care less about existance of such law, it does not concern him.

Is what the paladin of Sune doing chaotic in any way? Nope. Does it check plenty of things from her dogma? Yup.

If it worked any other way, then a paladin of any god that was not LG, including Sune and Helm, is destined to become a fallen paladin as their church's dogma systematically pushes them further toward CG or LN, respectively.

No, as there is nothing in Sune's or Helm's dogmas that would force a paladin to act outside of the lawful good domain. Basically the only god which allows paladins that is questionable would be Hoar. Still regardless of Hoar's dogma, his paladins are not allowed to commit chaotic or evil deeds if they wish to keep their paladinhood.

I personally think that Hoar was an oversight, a god which flirts with Bane on occasion has no place sponsoring paladins.