Disguise

[Rhifox]

Look, unless there are full rebuilds offered, so that PCs that have existed for ever get to now redistribute their Skill Points into Disguise, this addition essentially screws them over. That's a starting point.

The devs have already said that we're going to be getting a 100% RCR due to the amount of changes in this patch.


I really don't get the issue people are having with this system. People seem to think that players are going to go out of their way to break other people's disguises for, what, trolling? Frankly, unless you are directly roleplaying with the person, and have reason to suspect their disguise, I don't see many times when people will actually choose to make a roll. Just because you have the option to make the roll, doesn't mean you are always going to make it. Just like every similar roll we have. People don't ALWAYS roll Sense Motive anytime you say a lie IC, even though they theoretically could and see through every lie you make. People don't ALWAYS roll Listen when you RP listening in on a conversation from the other side of a door, even though they theoretically could the moment they have the OOC knowledge that you're there. People don't ALWAYS roll Diplomacy when they try the to convince your characters of something, even though they theoretically could.

– Skill Rolls Between Players
– Skill rolls may be used as guidelines in RP. However, a player is not required to follow any Skill rolls unless a DM enforces it. Only a DM may enforce skill rolls.

The new system means that you have to actually build your char sheet towards Disguises if you want your character to actually be good at disguises. It also means you should avoid relying too much on your disguise (as is realistic), because the more opportunities you give people to pay attention to it the more likely someone is going to try and look through it. And people who have built their char sheet towards perception (high Spot/Listen) should have the ability to spot through Disguises.

– "Play Your Sheet"
– You are required to play what is on your Character Sheet. For example, no role-playing of another Race if it does not appear on your Character Sheet. In-character (IC) lying and misinformation about your Character's skills, profession and morality is fair and acceptable, but Role-play which does not reflect the Abilities, Feats and Skills that exist on your Character Sheet, is not acceptable.

[Azure]

I understand perfectly where you are coming from, you feel as if an aspect of your roleplay has lessened somehow.

Not just my roleplay, but certainly the roleplay of those who wish to employ a disguise, or even simply wear attire that is intended to conceal their appearance. Regardless if that large black-armored figure wearing a full face shield while running past in the distance has invested any skill points in disguise, there is no legitimate justification for characters 50 yards away, regardless of their spot, to be able to click a button and IC'ly be able to determine that it was a tanarukk, or a human, or a drow, or a half-elf without engaging in any actual roleplay with that character. None.

The mechanical version of the Disguise System does away with good sportsmanship, and replaces it with a I Win Button: have high Spot, never get fooled.

This, more or less.

[thids]

Not just my roleplay, but certainly the roleplay of those who wish to employ a disguise, or even simply wear attire that is intended to conceal their appearance. Regardless if that large black-armored figure wearing a full face shield while running past in the distance has invested any skill points in disguise, there is no legitimate justification for characters 50 yards away, regardless of their spot, to be able to click a button and IC'ly be able to determine that it was a tanarukk, or a human, or a drow, or a half-elf without engaging in any actual roleplay with that character. None.

The mechanical version of the Disguise System does away with good sportsmanship, and replaces it with a I Win Button: have high Spot, never get fooled.

This, more or less.

Except there is a legitimate justification, it is spelled out clearly in the rules for Disguise. If a spotting character beats your characters disguise DC, then your characters disguise was simply not good enough. They did not manage to hide some of the characteristics of their race properly... It seems to me like you and Steve have an issue with the Spot skill in D&D, rather than the disguise aspect of the game.

As for Steve's point that you quoted there, didn't he open a thread about trying to find the middle ground between roleplay and roll play recently?
http://www.bgtscc.net/viewtopic.php?f=49&t=49724
It's pointed at DM's and events, but there are similarities to this issue as well.

Do you guys think it's fair that you, as the person RPing the disguise and enforcing it on others, get to determine what's the quality and amount of roleplay required for the CHARACTER you are interacting with to see through your disguise? Do you think it's fair that it completely relies on your willingness to give out clues IF you find the RP from the other party acceptable? Don't you see how that can be considered a completely OOC behavior? Shouldn't the spot of that CHARACTER have a say in it? You don't have faith in others to act and RP responsibly with the information they gain from their appraise attempt, yet you expect their unquestioning faith in you and your integrity with the system we have had so far.

[Rhifox]

Regardless if that large black-armored figure wearing a full face shield while running past in the distance has invested any skill points in disguise, there is no legitimate justification for characters 50 yards away, regardless of their spot, to be able to click a button and IC'ly be able to determine that it was a tanarukk, or a human, or a drow, or a half-elf without engaging in any actual roleplay with that character. None.

Nor is there legitimate justification to be able to determine, OOCly, what their name is. And yet you can by just looking at them.

The issue has nothing to do with the mechanics. It has everything to do with people actually RPing on an RP server. Just because you can click a button (or, using my example, see their name above their head), doesn't mean that your character knows it. As with any skill roll, it must be RPed.

People are jumping to extremes here.

Also, who is to say that someone at 50m with high enough spot can't determine that you are a different race? 20+ Spot is, in DnD, enough to let you be aware of the presence of someone who is Invisible. High enough Swim skill lets someone swim up waterfalls. Skills, at a high enough level, start reaching magical levels of capability. So yes, someone with high enough Spot could, potentially, see right through your disguise as if it wasn't even there, if their roll was good enough and yours wasn't. (at a DC of 80 a Spotter can see straight through magical Illusions). A high enough level of Spot, or any skill, reaches practically mythical levels of capability.

You don't have faith in others to act and RP responsibly with the information they gain from their appraise attempt, yet you expect their unquestioning faith in you and your integrity with the system we have had so far.

QFE

[Grimdark Hitman]

Do you guys think it's fair that you, as the person RPing the disguise and enforcing it on others, get to determine what's the quality and amount of roleplay required for the CHARACTER you are interacting with to see through your disguise?

No. I think a DM should be monitoring the situation and discovering who the spy is, it could be similar to a a game of clue... with clues throughout the disguised's tenure as disguised. There have been infiltrators who have comprehensively disguised themselves inside the sanctuaries of unsubtle characters before, and not just for a 3-6 month period but years. When you bring a dice roll into it (and some of these dice-rollers are druids with ultra-spot scores) the egress of RP will inevitably happen.

Let us remember you have always complained about super-secret agent RP, and ironically, have played one yourself. So, if you no longer wish to pursue this corridor there is no need for you to rip out the floorboards of said avenue.

Moreover, the disguise system in place wasn't given near as much attention as the spell updates; it merely changes your name-plate, there is no personal Aello's tailoring store and face putty materials to benefit from in your inventory.

[Azure]

Except there is a legitimate justification, it is spelled out clearly in the rules for Disguise. If a spotting character beats your characters disguise DC, then your characters disguise was simply not good enough. They did not manage to hide some of the characteristics of their race properly.

Spot DC's beating disguise DC's are all fine and well, as long as there's roleplay involved. Giving players carte-blanche race discernment at the press of a button, whether the target is fully armored from head to toe and running away 50 yards in the night through a forest(because environment and terrain matter, and not just for sneaks slinking down the middle of the road), or standing 5 yards away from your character in a wig and make-up, has nothing to do with DC's, and even less to do with roleplay. As far as I can tell, the appraise feature only provides the players involved with meta-information, and that's about it.

Nor is there legitimate justification to be able to determine, OOCly, what their name is. And yet you can by just looking at them.

But you can't nessesarily determine a characters race OOC'ly by looking at a fully masked or armored character, can you? Not to worry, now you can, from clear across the zone through trees, walls, and in the pitch black of night. You don't even need infra-vision, all you need is a marginal spot investment and then "appraise" them. Voila, instant meta-info via the combat log.

No roleplay necessary.

[Blackman D]

well im sure no one RPs differently because they know someone is trying to be all sneaky sneaky...

[thids]

Do you guys think it's fair that you, as the person RPing the disguise and enforcing it on others, get to determine what's the quality and amount of roleplay required for the CHARACTER you are interacting with to see through your disguise?

No. I think a DM should be monitoring the situation and discovering who the spy is, it could be similar to a a game of clue... with clues throughout the disguised's tenure as disguised. There have been infiltrators who have comprehensively disguised themselves inside the sanctuaries of unsubtle characters before, and not just for a 3-6 month period but years. When you bring a dice roll into it (and some of these dice-rollers are druids with ultra-spot scores) the egress of RP will inevitably happen.

The egress of RP? Yes, unfair RP might end prematurely. Prematurely for someone who thought it's a great idea to disguise themselves and then present that disguise day in - day out to the same people for years. Right on time for everyone else with some common sense though.

Except there is a legitimate justification, it is spelled out clearly in the rules for Disguise. If a spotting character beats your characters disguise DC, then your characters disguise was simply not good enough. They did not manage to hide some of the characteristics of their race properly.

Spot DC's beating disguise DC's are all fine and well, as long as there's roleplay involved. Giving players carte-blanche race discernment at the press of a button, whether the target is fully armored from head to toe and running away 50 yards in the night through a forest(because environment and terrain matter, and not just for sneaks slinking down the middle of the road), or standing 5 yards away from your character in a wig and make-up, has nothing to do with DC's, and even less to do with roleplay. As far as I can tell, the appraise feature only provides the players involved with meta-information, and that's about it.

Nor is there legitimate justification to be able to determine, OOCly, what their name is. And yet you can by just looking at them.

But you can't nessesarily determine a characters race OOC'ly by looking at a fully masked or armored character, can you? Not to worry, now you can, from clear across the zone through trees, walls, and in the pitch black of night. You don't even need infra-vision, all you need is a marginal spot investment and then "appraise" them. Voila, instant meta-info via the combat log.

No roleplay necessary.

Well, how about this as a solution: A post by the DM team with some carefully worded guidelines on how to use the appraise creature function? They can sticky it in the general section of the forums. Those who do not adhere to guidelines would likely metagame your character's race and other information to begin with, while those interested in roleplay would engage in such. I mean the guideline would basically be "use common sense", but admittedly some people DO need that.

[Grimdark Hitman]

I'm just having a healthy conversation and nothing about what I said was personal unless you consider super-secret agent RP a personal topic. I've always appreciated all of your RP, recognized you as the founder of Newspaper RP, and enjoyed RP with your Silver Shield Character. I have suspected you didn't appreciate when I tried to change the Newspaper RP into something you had originally never wanted it to become, but I assure you there was nothing personal about the returns and lack of returns such opposite direction generated. As for dropping me a new one? Why would I care? We win some, we lose some.

[Azure]

Also, who is to say that someone at 50m with high enough spot can't determine that you are a different race? 20+ Spot is, in DnD, enough to let you be aware of the presence of someone who is Invisible. High enough Swim skill lets someone swim up waterfalls. Skills, at a high enough level, start reaching magical levels of capability. So yes, someone with high enough Spot could, potentially, see right through your disguise as if it wasn't even there, if their roll was good enough and yours wasn't. (at a DC of 80 a Spotter can see straight through magical Illusions). A high enough level of Spot, or any skill, reaches practically mythical levels of capability.

I can only assume that you're quoting from and drawing a comparison to Pen and Paper with your examples here. I feel obligated to tell you, just as numerous HDM's, DM's, and players alike have stated over the years, that this server isn't based on Pen and Paper, it's based on the Neverwinter Nights variety and implementation of D&D(in all it's butchery glory). Many players, myself included, tend to subconsciously gloss over or disregard PnP and NwN comparisons because of this rule of thumb. I just wanted to let you know so you didn't think I was ignoring this comparison. Unfortunately(or fortunately, depending on ones point of view), PnP arguments tend to fall on deaf ears here.

Well, how about this as a solution: A post by the DM team with some carefully worded guidelines on how to use the appraise creature function? They can sticky it in the general section of the forums. Those who do not adhere to guidelines would likely metagame your character's race and other information to begin with, while those interested in roleplay would engage in such. I mean the guideline would basically be "use common sense", but admittedly some people DO need that.

I would be perfectly content with that. Although I imagine they would follow along the same guidelines as the ones concerning the usage of bluff/intimidate/sense motive/diplomacy, and the like.

Personally speaking, I will likely end up treating any "appraising" of my character in the same fashion as I do when players 'rollplay' these skills towards my character. That is to say: If the appraise is made without any accompanying roleplay, I will completely ignore it. If the opposing player offers an accompanying emote or roleplays in a responsible fashion, and by that I mean: they do not treat their appraise roll as if it were x-ray vision, or make patently obvious IC statements about the meta-info provided to them in the combat log, then I will attempt to accommodate them.

You would think that "Using common sense" should be a given by now on BGTSCC. Unfortunately, I have witnessed more instances of metagaming and godmodding over the last three to four months than I had in the previous year or two. Hence the reason I am vehemently opposed to any type of script or feature that potentially provides players with the ability to indulge in gaining meta-info via mechanical methods. This is something which, in my humble opinion, the disguise/appraise addition lets them do.

[Akulakha]

Does anyone know what classes and prestige classes the disguise skill counts as a class skill?

[NeOmega]

IRL, there was a bank robber in my state who had a ski mask on.

The bank tellers still told police exactly who he was, they recognized him by his eyes only.

If you are constantly interacting with people, and then try to rob them, I assure you,they will recognize you.

Also, there is more to a disguise than putting on dark clothes. You also have to alter your gait, or people can recognize you simply by the way you walk, if they are familiar enough with you.

[Zanniej]

Shouldn't disguise be countered by Sense Motive? Or at least a combination of skills? Spot already has a lot going for it, and this would make that skill even more overpowered. Plus, no matter how good your eyes are, if someone's a great actor, you'll still be unable to see fault in their disguise.

I think being able to counter disguise with another skill that's not that easily buffed to epic levels makes it a lot more balanced and more logical.

[Steve]

Shouldn't disguise be countered by Sense Motive? Or at least a combination of skills? Spot already has a lot going for it, and this would make that skill even more overpowered. Plus, no matter how good your eyes are, if someone's a great actor, you'll still be unable to see fault in their disguise.

I think being able to counter disguise with another skill that's not that easily buffed to epic levels makes it a lot more balanced and more logical.

The problem with this, though I agree with it in general, is that in PnP, it's Disguise vs Spot.

Do you guys think it's fair that you, as the person RPing the disguise and enforcing it on others, get to determine what's the quality and amount of roleplay required for the CHARACTER you are interacting with to see through your disguise? Do you think it's fair that it completely relies on your willingness to give out clues IF you find the RP from the other party acceptable? Don't you see how that can be considered a completely OOC behavior? Shouldn't the spot of that CHARACTER have a say in it? You don't have faith in others to act and RP responsibly with the information they gain from their appraise attempt, yet you expect their unquestioning faith in you and your integrity with the system we have had so far.

I would ask you be more careful when saying "enforce," because that subjects the conversation to a opinion you may have against myself or others, when I am here talking about a general, objective use of a new System that has yuge repercussions on many a Toons existence.

I would like to point out this: I feel there is a confusion between wearing a disguise, and having different personas that rely on a disguise. Because the Game has yet to have a Disguise Skill, nor a PrC for disguise RP, nor Items that specifically add to that Skill Set, the previous paradigm was allowing for Players to be "in contract" about a specific type of RP. Take Xanfryst's Dreadlord character, for example. Just imagine how the new Disguise System would have completely destroyed the Player's RP of his Toon.

In the past, with the Provisional Rules I drafted, there was no Rule against 2 players allowing for a Spot role to "see through" a disguise—again, a contract from out good sportsmanship. Now, it is MANDATORY, more or less.

From a different angle, what is the Disguise Skill? Is it now a mechanical way to supplant that actual RPing of a disguised or unknown persona? Just because we follow the Rule of "RP YOUR SHEET", that does not mean a Player is actually capable to RP a Disguise Skill of 99.

Additionally, how do you RP a Spot of 99? Without just being 2 steps below Superman infra vision, right?!?

My point is that Disguise Skill itself is fine, even needed in order that we CAN RP our Sheet correctly. However, that a mechanical change of Appraising was introduced, and provides Players with a means to end RP with a mechanical advantage outside of DM oversight, not only goes against established Server Rules, it is bad sportsmanship.

And after having said all that, an issue that is probably causing most difficulties on this subject are:

1. Lack of public documentation on how the mechanics work, in total experience and what to expect as a Player.
2. Lack of DMs or Devs explaining the pros and cons of the choice to add this new Disguise System, and not let the Players—who are affected directly by it—have a say as to whether they want it, AFTER being duly educated on its use.

[Boddynock]

Actually, if you read the description for disguise, all it lets you do is LOOK like someone you are not, not act like them. Acting is still perform. A true master of disguise will require investments in bluff, perform, and disguise. And a successful spot against a disguise shouldn't always mean you know exactly who it is, especially if you have never seen them before. It just lets you know they are wearing a disguise. Spot doesn't grant you xray vision. Even the epic lvl spot uses taht let you notice and invisible creature is present don't let you see him. You just spot the dust in the air move as his breath disturbs it.