About the Hierophant PRC

[Theodore01]

Does Hierophant progress turning? Apart from the Master of Energy.

yes, full caster and turn undead progression.

Why is that not mentioned in the class description, either ingame nor on the wiki

[chad878262]

don't know, but I will give you my take on what makes a Hierophant super cool (since you asked, right?)

You can make a max WIS, decent CHA Cleric that can reach very respectable DC's with some focus on Evocation.

More cool, you can make a Turn Undead focused / max CHA, decent WIS (I built one for testing that had approx. 30 CHA and 22 WIS, fully buffed) that can either take evil domain or epic turn outsider feat and you can turn undead and outsiders really well. Hopefully some of the TU immune / resistant mobs and bosses will be lowered a bit as well which will make a TU focused cleric shine in certain areas. All of this while being able to use TU to increase CL and DC of spells as well using improved divine spell power. My test build was a simple C20/H10 and had SP III, Improved Divine Spell Power and Mastery of Energy and with a good roll could get really nice DC's when not up against undead or outsiders... When against Undead or Outsiders Turn Undead worked in JEGS on CR's all the way up to 28 (though after CR25 they didn't work every time, it was more often then not and defeating anything over CR21 in JEGS is an accomplishment).

There are some really neat things you can do with a Druid or Spirit Shaman / Heirophant that could make some folks focus on caster druids instead of shifter/dragon druids since their DC's could become INSANE! with Owl's Insight, Spell Power III and adding a dip for TU so they can use Improved Divine Spell Power. Haven't tested, but I imagine a Druid's DC when doing all of this is probably higher than any other class could hope to reach.

[Karond]

Yes, the only way to get Heirophant AND 2 non-caster classes/PRC's is to go with Cleric or Druid (ie, CL13/H3/R3/X3) but I've no idea why you would since as a Cleric you already have the thing FS's are trying to get (turn undead)...

No, as I said, you can't get a 4th class unless it's one the classes I listed. Your proposed split breaks the 3b20 rule (13+3+3+3 =22 levels).

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It has full turning progression yes. It should be mentioned, jsut an oversight. This makes master of energy fairly attractive. Remember, +4 to that roll is like having +8 charisma.

Essentially, a 20 cleric/10 hierophant with improved turning and master of energy will turn enemies at his level 100% of the time with just a base charisma of 10. This makes you able to do a DC caster and have great turning abilities. Sure, you might not have that many uses of turn undead unless you use items, feats or a little more charisma, but its cool nonetheless

[Karond]

10 morninglord, 10 cleric, 10 hierophant.

Get master of energy and sun domain if you want, but its not necessary. Pretty solid for a high DC cleric with some turning power and only having 8-10 charisma

[chad878262]

Yes, the only way to get Heirophant AND 2 non-caster classes/PRC's is to go with Cleric or Druid (ie, CL13/H3/R3/X3) but I've no idea why you would since as a Cleric you already have the thing FS's are trying to get (turn undead)...

No, as I said, you can't get a 4th class unless it's one the classes I listed. Your proposed split breaks the 3b20 rule (13+3+3+3 =22 levels).

You are correct, and we went over it numerous times in QC.

[AlfarinIcebreaker]

How about Harm spamming Spirit Shaman?

[Calodan]

10 morninglord, 10 cleric, 10 hierophant.

Get master of energy and sun domain if you want, but its not necessary. Pretty solid for a high DC cleric with some turning power and only having 8-10 charisma

I immediately rolled up a turner cleric this way...although my less than adequate building skills and knowledge of the server I just went for 22WIS at the end and maxed out CHA to 28.....I am guessing this is extreme overkill for a turner cleric on BG? Or is it just what I need to turn undead in a DM event?

Basically speaking what would the minimum CHA be to turn undead in DM events and the Balor on the Greay Peaks?

[mrm3ntalist]

Basically speaking what would the minimum CHA be to turn undead in DM events and the Balor on the Greay Peaks?

With the Evil domain you just need 30levels of classes with turn undead progression. Some charisma will help.

For anything else you need all the above + 25CHA + Planar turning

[Calodan]

With the Evil domain you just need 30levels of classes with turn undead progression. Some charisma will help.

For anything else you need all the above + 25CHA + Planar turning

Oh right....that was why I went for max CHA anyway that Planar turning on a Lathander Cleric......Long day today I am so brain dead.......I think it is time for a personal grounding of forum use for me.....Going to stay IG and just have funz from here on out lest my amazing disgruntled and retarded self is well known to all........

[Karond]

With full turning progression, you need 28 charisma to turn enemies at your level 100% of the time. Very few enemies go beyond HD30, the ones that do are:

Crypt Keeper (34)
Valgoth (34)
Netherese Arcane Ghost (33)
Netherese Avenger Ghost (35) <- nearly impossible to turn
Gargantuan Nightwalker (40) <- impossible to turn
Greater Nightwalker (35) <- nearly impossible to turn
Huge Nightwalker (31)
Alhoon Lich (32)
Dracolich (50) <- impossible to turn
Demilich (41) <- impossible to turn
Necrolord (41) <- impossible to turn

So 28 charisma to turn every other enemy but these (100% of the time that is, there is still a chance to turn things at level 34 or lower). Remember that's the final score.

Eagle's splendour provides +4 charisma
Improved Turning feat is like getting +6 charisma
Master of Energy is like getting +8 charisma
Sun domain is like getting +2D4 charisma

So as you can see, you can quickly get most of the charisma you need to turn enemies at your level (so level 30 enemies and below) without having much charisma to begin with. Base charisma is mostly needed to get more uses of turn undead, which is sometimes needed unless you've extra turning feat(s).

But 28 charisma is turning at your level. If you want to turn these others 100% of the time, you need:

To turn level 31 you need 34 charisma
To turn level 32 you need 40 charisma
To turn level 33 you need 46 charisma
to turn level 34 you need 52 charisma

So...even with all the bonuses from above, it's probably not worth it going too heavy on charisma.

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QC has recommended that planar turning has its requirements lowered from 25 charisma to 21 charisma. That should help quite a bit, if that change ever comes live. All the outsiders are level 30 or below, so they're far easier to turn

[Calodan]

Eagle's splendour provides +4 charisma
Improved Turning feat is like getting +6 charisma
Master of Energy is like getting +8 charisma
Sun domain is like getting +2D4 charisma

Do they go into the turning equation cumulatively? So I would in theory add 26 CHA to my already 28 CHA in a turning sense? So in theory if I rolled a perfect roll with the Sun domain I would have 54 CHA for the turning roll? So in theory they would allow me to turn even the hardest to turn things albeit not at 100% more like >60% of the time?

[Karond]

Yes, it's cumulative.

If you've 28 charisma, plus eagle's, plus improved turning, plus master of energy plus a maxed roll on the sun domain, you would be treated as having 54 charisma. That's automatic success against level 34 enemies, and 90% chance at turning level 35. Well, assuming that maxed roll on the sun domain. If you take the average there, you've a 90% chance at level 34, and 75% chance at level 35.

[mrm3ntalist]

Eagle's splendour provides +4 charisma
Improved Turning feat is like getting +6 charisma
Master of Energy is like getting +8 charisma
Sun domain is like getting +2D4 charisma

Do they go into the turning equation cumulatively? So I would in theory add 26 CHA to my already 28 CHA in a turning sense? So in theory if I rolled a perfect roll with the Sun domain I would have 54 CHA for the turning roll? So in theory they would allow me to turn even the hardest to turn things albeit not at 100% more like >60% of the time?

There are two checks in turning.

- The first ( 1d20 + your Charisma modifier + any other bonuses such as sun domain ) determines what level of undead you can turn. It is basically your turninglevel ( 30 for a build with classes that progress turn undead ) +1 Improved turning ( if you have it ) and a -4 to +4 bonus depending on your charisma roll ( 1d20 + your Charisma modifier + any other bonuses such as sun domain ).
Having High Charisma reduces the posibilities of rolling low but at a point even if you have 100 it wont matter, since the maximum level of undead you can turn is 35

- The second roll is the maximum damage you can do ( 2d6 + your cleric level + your Charisma + any other bonuses)
if your second roll is 60 and there are 2 35HD undead you can turn only one of them because their sum ( 35 + 35 = 70 ) is greater than your turning damage ( 60 from your roll )

Thats why Karond says that there is apoint that with all the extra bonuses, having higher charisma does not worth it - especially on the first roll.

[AnchorUp]

How does a Hierophant Druid turn out? Seems like it can make a good DC druid, away from the standard caster type

[chad878262]

How does a Hierophant Druid turn out? Seems like it can make a good DC druid, away from the standard caster type

Yep, Druid Heirophant can get CL 32 for an extra DC and could cross class with 3 or 4 levels of cleric or Blackguard for Turn Undead and then take Divine Spell Power and Improved Divine Spell Power (Heirophant ability) to use turn undead to improve the DC of next spell cast. This along with Owl's insight could make the Druid DC's insanely high. I could see Druid 17/C3/H10 being a very strong DC caster... I suppose the issue is the Druid's save or else spells are not exactly robust... Could have some high DC epic spells I suppose, though I am not sure if (improved) divine spell power can increase the DC of epic spells...