[solved] Dervish optimization (again)

[NegInfinity]

I'd like to know if there's a way to improve this a bit:

http://nwn2db.com/build/?237638

Especially by level 20 (because said char will most likely stay level 20 for a LOOONG time).

I'm okay with skill set and class set, but there's no Improved Critical, and not tricks (like Knockdown/Disarm). I'd like to have disarm or some fun ability on the character. Uncanny dodge would be nice too. I think it gets some sort weapon specialization(???) via weapon master, but I'm not sure (is that a custom change?)

However, as far as I can tell, the only possible optimization here is to move improved power attack (because IPA attack has something like 26 AB by level 20 which looks a bit low to me) from level 12 to level 26, replace it it with improved critical and maybe replace blindsight with something else.

Alternative suggestions would be okay, as long as the build scheme does not become too convoluted and is playable at level 20.

I think I can drop charisma by 2 points if that is ABSOLUTELY necessary, but aside from that I would like to keep the stats roughly the same.

[Steve]

You could drop 3 of Dervish and choose Fighter 12 for Mastery and Rogue 4 for Uncanny (nice to keep your Dodge AC).

Tireless Dance is nice to have, but Dervish Dance is quite limited, and you may enjoy a constant AB/DMG boost (either way it's far into Epic levels, which you think you'll never see).

And lower Open Lock/Disable Trap to pick up as much Spellcraft as you can (good for Saves, trust me).

[chad878262]

Aside from the fact that it is obviously not "optimized" since you can't be in ICE and IPA at the same time it seems fine to me. If you wanted Improved Crit you could always drop IPA or ICE (whichever mode you think you will be in less), but not a huge deal since you have UMD and keen wands are cheap.

Steve's comments are also valid as 12 Fighter with weapon mastery and 4 rogue get's you some of what you asked for. You could drop PA/IPA for Knockdown/Improved Knockdown or disarm and improved crit (or power crit with a keen wand, but power crit isn't really necessary) as well if you wanted to always just use ICE to give yourself better AC.

It's always rough seeing Armor skin with no LoH, though I see why you did it I don't think you needed to. Consider taking LoH at 1 and Able Learner at 3. dropping/moving back power attack for whirlwind keeps your levelling schematic in place and Fighter gets very few skill points so you can save most of them for level 4 after you have able learner. Just drop intimidate from your level 1 skills and put those points in at level 2 when you take Fighter. That nets you +1 to all saves and you can either keep Armor skin for the additional AC or move one of your less necessary feats such as IPA to epics.

[duracele]

You might want 15 skillpoints in umd for alignment restricted gear (or the wands... one of them needs 15). after modifier that is.
halberd really? just use scythe or falchion
i tried fumbling with epic levels but failed. if you could replace armor skin with 1 great strength and min max a bit more (drop either char, wis or int by 2) you could pump 2 more into your main attribute.
looks fine though. i want a weapoin master

[Theodore01]

hmm, this dervish 10 calls for a fb5 (instead of wm) - that way you could take f12 as well.

I enjoyed playing a dualwielding f12,derv10,temp5,ro3.

[NegInfinity]

Thanks for the replies.

You could drop 3 of Dervish and choose Fighter 12 for Mastery and Rogue 4 for Uncanny (nice to keep your Dodge AC).

Tireless Dance is nice to have, but Dervish Dance is quite limited, and you may enjoy a constant AB/DMG boost (either way it's far into Epic levels, which you think you'll never see).

And lower Open Lock/Disable Trap to pick up as much Spellcraft as you can (good for Saves, trust me).

I'll consider that. Traps go to at least dc 50, but I don't remember many epic locks in areas. Spellcraft could also open many entertaining rp options that would involve warlock players }:-)

Aside from the fact that it is obviously not "optimized" since you can't be in ICE and IPA at the same time it seems fine to me.

builds that have both IPA and ICE are never expected to have both active at same time.
Those feats are used to adapt to combat situations. If someone is trying to kill you in particular, you go into full defense mode and activate ICE and maybe even forego your favorite weapon and put a tower shield on. If the opponent is weak or is not attacking you, then you go into whatever power attack still allows you to confirm a critical. That's the idea.

Steve's comments are also valid as 12 Fighter with weapon mastery and 4 rogue get's you some of what you asked for. You could drop PA/IPA for Knockdown/Improved Knockdown or disarm and improved crit

I'd need to drop weapon master or dervish for that, though :-\

(or power crit with a keen wand,

I checked the wiki, they apear to cost 11k. Also I haven't seen even one wandcrafter in past 3 weeks. I suppose chances of acquiring keen +3 halberd are rather slim.

It's always rough seeing Armor skin with no LoH, though I see why you did it I don't think you needed to. Consider taking LoH at 1 and Able Learner at 3. dropping/moving back power attack for whirlwind keeps your levelling schematic in place and Fighter gets very few skill points so you can save most of them for level 4 after you have able learner. Just drop intimidate from your level 1 skills and put those points in at level 2 when you take Fighter. That nets you +1 to all saves and you can either keep Armor skin for the additional AC or move one of your less necessary feats such as IPA to epics.

I'll think about LoH (I just really don't like having this feat. Could make sense on a human, though). The reason why there's Able Learner at level 1 (as you most likely already noticed) is becausse rogue level results in skillpoints overflowing way past 5 skillpoints you can save for the next level, so at the next fighter level 2 (if you pick Able Learner at level 3), you'll be losing skills points. And there aren't enough of those to max all the skills I wanted, as you can see.

You might want 15 skillpoints in umd for alignment restricted gear (or the wands... one of them needs 15). after modifier that is.

-8 cha Tiefling would need 16 or +2 cha gear.

halberd really? just use scythe or falchion

Hey, I could always go quarterstaff or warmace instead if I really wanted to gimp my character.

I want slashing blade on a stick.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_scythe
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Naginata

Even though halberds have whopping 6 custom appearances total, they do have what I need.

Normal scythe would look tad ridiculous for me, unless if I played follower of Myrkul. I could grab a scythe if thee's a custom appearance matched what i want.

Falchions are major pain in the rear when you start looking for cold iron/silver ones.

If you run the numbers, halberd, spear and other 20/x3 weapons aren't that bad.

i tried fumbling with epic levels but failed. if you could replace armor skin with 1 great strength

Getting great strength on fighter bonus feat requires 20 fighter levels, unfortunately.

looks fine though. i want a weapoin master

They are major pain to level. For 7 levels almost nothing is happening. You could try that via RCR, though.

[NegInfinity]

hmm, this dervish 10 calls for a fb5 (instead of wm) - that way you could take f12 as well.

I enjoyed playing a dualwielding f12,derv10,temp5,ro3.

Hmm. That's an interesting idea.

Neutral evil. Might work.

And I might be able to dervish dance while frenzied for extra fun.

The issue is that character was supposed to be VERY calm most of the time. Jerkyll/Hyde approach, maybe? Need to think this over.

How would damage output compare to WM7? Your build is dual-wielder, this one has only one weapon.

[chad878262]

Weapon Master would outperform in situations where you can crit, but I don't know that it would be that big a difference, when you consider supreme power attack (or whatever FB's PA is called)... Anywhere with crit immune the FB is going to continue to shine whereas the WM falls off.

[NegInfinity]

Weapon Master would outperform in situations where you can crit, but I don't know that it would be that big a difference, when you consider supreme power attack (or whatever FB's PA is called)... Anywhere with crit immune the FB is going to continue to shine whereas the WM falls off.

Right. Undead, golems and all other things. I forgot.

-----

Let's see...

By level 20.. 20 str,
19 BAB. Assuming target I can reliably hit and confirm against.

Halberd 1d10, average 5.5, Physical +3 (enchantment), +7 from strength (5 * 1.5), + 12 from IPA = 5.5 + 22 = 27.5 weapon average ... 110.4 critical average, max damage 32 *4 = 128.

Adjustment for critical chances (assuming I somehow got keen and can crit all the way)...
17-20 range, meaning 4/20 = 20% hits are critical, meaning...

27.5 * (0.8 + (0.2 * 4)) * 0.95 = 27.5 * 1.6 * 0.95 = 41.8.

*0.95% represents guaranteed miss chance on rolling 1.

That does not include dervish dance bonus.

Frezerker (raw damage, no frenzy):
20/x3 range, not keen.
Halberd average 5.5 +3 (enc) + 7 str + 20 ipa = 32.5, 37 max.
Critical average (x3) 97.5, critical max 111.

Average damage:
32.5* (0.95 + (0.05 * 3)) * 0.95 = 32.5 * 1.1 * 0.95 = 33.96.

So, 5 extra points of non-critical damage on average on FB. 4.8 extra points on average on WM. That's without dances/frenzies.

----

Am I missing anything?

[tankteddy]

Missing is RP elements. I had someone ask me for this build before.

Takeo Yamada, this was my samurai build. The IPA and ICE are for exactly as stated. Fight defence or offense when needed.
http://nwn2db.com/build/?231891

Someone asked for a version much like this before. This was a tiefling version I was asked for.
http://nwn2db.com/build/?237167

Makes me happy to know someone enjoys the build. ((Even if I wasn't the first to make it I don't know))

Edit:
This whole build was was based off a 5e half oni that used a naginata turned samurai. I love the fact that you are making a tiefling with such! ((In pathfinder half oni was a tiefling sub race "home brew I think"))

[NegInfinity]

Missing is RP elements.

There is character concept/rp elements, it is just there was not much reason to post them here.

I had someone ask me for this build before.

That was me, actually.

I rolled it and tried it out, found out that I misplaced some of +3 gear (which I thought that I had on me), tested damage on on nearby bandits and thought that I MIGHT need minor improvement.

The main issue is that there is no "trick" like disarm on this build (which would fit the concept well), it felt like improved critical could help too. Aside from that, it fit the concept I had in mind very well. (I also tried excellent steve's build based on whirling dervish only to find out that it is too different from the idea I had).

Which is why I asked for help here.

Since you're the one who made original idea, feel free to propose improvements.

I will need to adjust the character a bit either way, because I selected appearance that did not fit the idea well.

I love the fact that you are making a tiefling with such! ((In pathfinder half oni was a tiefling sub race "home brew I think"))

Thanks, but I feel like it will be a while before I actually start playing it.
Also, occasionally there is a great idea that somehow doesn't fit the server well. I'm starting to get the feeling that this might be one of those. Not sure yet, time will tell.

[tankteddy]

I'll see what I can do to tweet it for you, the reason no improved critical is because of Keen wands and wizards help, this was before the caster level update. That or a keen weapon.

Edit: The Quickest fix would be this, you lose 1 Natural AC, and ICE.
Gain Disarm and Improved Disarm.

http://nwn2db.com/build/?237167

[NegInfinity]

Thanks for the responses, in the end I decided not to change the build (for now, anyway).

I rerolled character for proper appearance, and it is okay, especially with current melee feats. It is not someone who can go to serpent hills alone, but the char can hold ground in many areas.

I'll test it a bit more, and maybe reroll it into disarm version if I decide that it still needs some tricks or a bit more punch.

Problem solved.

[NegInfinity]

As far as keen and weapon of impact wands, there's that new vendor that sells items with 50 charges of those now.

Already found it.