Amplify, Clairaudience/Clairvoyance and Legend Lore

[Flasmix]

I thought this was not the case?

Only the caster gets to see the will save spam (which should also be removed imo to avoid metagaming the presence of nearby sneaks). Targets in the AoE roll will saves, but secretly, so they don't know someone in the vicinity has Amplify or C/C active. At least this is how it was supposed to work.

No dude, it's the other way around. Targets in the AoE are rolling visible saves like CRAZY and I see nothing in my log.

[Thorsson]

And so if you don't do an event where the DM calls for it then it's absolutely useless?

Maybe we should nerf everything that way, if it's such a great idea.

No, definitely not. We shouldn't nerf everything that way.

But I'm pretty sure you just got about 100 new spells that have mechanical effects, and one thing that should be an RP spell got changed to an RP spell.

I like the change to Legend Lore. If you want a spell that helps you identify items, I might suggest "Identify."

1. That was sarcasm.

2. I didn't get 100 new spells.

3. I don't even bother with Identify, but that isn't the point. It's not about me, it's about the principle. Why did LL need nerfing?

Thanks Flasmix for telling me why my low level character suddenly started spamming failed Will Saves outside the FAI. Ridiculous; needs to change right away.

[Bad Omens]

lol, some change is good. Some change is bad. This is unnecessary change. I love playing sneaks, I hate getting detected but I don't think anything was broken here. Don't like Paladins using UMD and wands to detect, eliminate those spells being able to be wand crafted, IMO.

[NegInfinity]

I thought this was not the case?

Only the caster gets to see the will save spam (which should also be removed imo to avoid metagaming the presence of nearby sneaks). Targets in the AoE roll will saves, but secretly, so they don't know someone in the vicinity has Amplify or C/C active. At least this is how it was supposed to work.

last time someone tried to detect my invisible character with c/c I was rolling will saves every round, which were showing in my combat log. Not sure if it is still the case.

speaking of C/C, here's how it is supposed to work:
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/claira ... oyance.htm

Clairaudience/clairvoyance creates an invisible magical sensor at a specific location that enables you to hear or see (your choice) almost as if you were there. You don’t need line of sight or line of effect, but the locale must be known—a place familiar to you or an obvious one. Once you have selected the locale, the sensor doesn’t move, but you can rotate it in all directions to view the area as desired. Unlike other scrying spells, this spell does not allow magically or supernaturally enhanced senses to work through it. If the chosen locale is magically dark, you see nothing. If it is naturally pitch black, you can see in a 10-foot radius around the center of the spell’s effect. Clairaudience/clairvoyance functions only on the plane of existence you are currently occupying.

So it shouldn't grant any bonuses to begin with...

[mrm3ntalist]

Wand usage is now crippled on this server. Wands are largely useless. At this point you need to be a caster level 30 caster or a non-UMD reliant melee build. Of the wands you mention M3nt, one has a duration of 5 rounds, the other 10 rounds - and really it's 4 and 9 rounds due to casting time.

While the wand usage is dispelable now, nothing would affect the amplify. CL does not matter. It is a flat out +20 bonus on a skill. Even someone with no listen skill and just those two wands, has a chance to detect a sneak in the mid epics that is not fortunate to get any sneak gear other of what there is in the shops ( and that is the standard for new players ) The duration is enough especially in detect mode. I dont understand why the duration lessens? The duration is supposed to start once the spell is casted, after that it lasts for 5 and 10 rounds respectively. And here come the wands. You get 50 castings of those. More if you carry more wands. I think it is enough.

After which, the sneak can just go back to abusing the extremely broken feat that is HiPS.

Again this is not about pvp or even hips. Yes, the change will affect them, but literally this change is about detection and sneaking. Most of the sneaking is not done in pvp and i believe not even in PvE. Most hiding happens when players RP their characters.

The only time that it is truly worthwhile using Amplify is with a bard, so it's a niche ability for the bars that you are nerfing. I kind of agree that +20 is overkill, but keep in mind that every build should have a counter.

Yes +20 is an overkill. It is simply too much. That spell alone covers the 40% of the skill cap bonus. C&C added another 20%. Lets add another couple of spells and make detection gear redundant.

Take a bard for example. +20 amplify, +10 C%C, +4heroism +6 Inspire competence. that is 40 bonus skill points. You only need to add another 10 skill points and you reached the cap. That is it. You can spot EVERY SNEAK. Even if you had more detection gear, you cant even use it.

Explain to me how this is balanced or fair.

What about spot? Most bards don't boost spot, any feinter will carve bards up. Or they can use silence ...

Its easy to max spot on a bard. Especially bard with so many skill points. You only need a 3or 4 lvldip in a class that opens up spot and spread those levels to max it.

Tell me, have you guys nerfed a Druids ability to counter sneaks? Have you nerfed Owls Insight? Or would that rock the boat too much? To use your reasoning, any spell that gives +12 to abilities is way above the curve and thus should be culled? Besides, that spell does more than add to listen ....
What about those builds that can't detect sneaks but don't care anyway because sneaks just plain can't hit or hurt them? Mirror Images, Premonition, Armoured Sorcerers .... It's a can of worms, where do you stop?

Changes happen all the time. Even Owls Insight has been brought up for discussion in the past. Everything is discussed. The difference with the changes you mentioned and Amplify is that the latter can be used by EVERY build because of wands.

Why not just give sneak gear the boost it deserves, leave other classes alone and move on ...

Even if sneak gear was equal, those spells with a bonus of +20 and +10 are too much. I explained above why is that and that has to do with bonus skill cap. Such high bonuses should not exist for any skill.

Also, I still don't understand, if we are a server that doesn't care about pvp, then why do we care if there is a disparity between sneak and detect bonuses available AS LONG AS THE GEAR AVAILABLE IS OF THE SAME QUALITY?

Again, this is not a change regarding pvp.

[Steve]

Are there any mobs with H/MS skills above 60?

If not, then all Amplify/C&C changes were made to affect Player-vs-Player play.

But I will agree that PvP is also integrated into what RP is, on this Server. So changes do have a greater effect then realized, in some implementations.

[AC81]

m3nt you know I love you and all the work you do for this server (really, incredible) so I don't want you to think I'm taking a personal stab at you or anything, but I feel you're glossing over a few things in your previous post. Namely ...

Wand are dispellable ... VERY dispellable. But do you seriously think pvp is going to really go down like this: Sneaker > hips, Non-sneaker > aha, hipster! uses wand of amplify, chases sneaker for 4 rounds, Sneaker > hips, Non-sneaker > aha, hipster! uses wand of amplify ... times 50 times number of wands of amplify they have. Really? Wands of Amplify are pretty terrible. They last 4 rounds, as soon as the sneaker goes back into stealth after 1 round, you have to find them again. Any sneaks worth their salt could play hit and run , or just evade for 4 rounds. You say wands have many charges, well, I haven't exactly seen any limit of uses of the hips ability, so the amount of times a wand can be used is irrelevant. Also, while our non-sneaking friend is constantly applying amplify, C/C and restoring health from crippling strike, our sneak is either killing him or getting away.

A lot of hiding happens when players RP their characters, yes. This makes sneaking around druids, rangers and maybe monks and bards very dangerous, as it should be. One question - why would a player just up and use a 4 round buff for no reason other than metagaming footsteps or buffs on the sneak? That's a small window of opportunity, really small. And it is crazy obvious in an RP context when someone does that - it's because they've heard footsteps, seen the sneak transition and then they go "Oop, time to use my 4 round wand of sneak destruction!" Without that wand however, sneaks can get around other character quite easily.

The +20 is overkill, agreed. But I still think it should be a bard spell because it is a hard spell to know when to use. I don't think it should be able to be made into a wand at all, in any form of the spell. Much like holy sword and bless weapon.

You talk about skill caps like bards walk around with amplify, C/C, inspire competence and spot/listen gear on at all times. Most bards have inspire courage on so they can hit and do damage. Amplify and C/C are short duration buffs, as you know, and on a class that doesn't actually get many spell slots, most of the time it has better things to be using spells for. Without buffs, bards are just low HP, low AC fighters that only hit things sometimes.

It ISN'T easy to max spot now, at least not without making sacrifices. You want spot? Then you need another class ... let's say rogue, nice easy dip yeah? You get spot, evasion for expose and more skill points. Only the problem is that now you have only light armour and restricted weapons. No room for spot on EDM bards that want to stay safe from dispels - cause if a bard gets dispelled he's got problems. So all this just to get spot on a build that already has huge listen capabilities. Like I said, most won't bother.

From what I hear, sneak gear is about to make a big come back. I get the feeling that is what is being pushed for, I've seen good sneak gear in the new shop and most likely there will be more to follow. The thing is m3nt, you talk like there aren't spells out there that boost hide or move silently. There are ... and their duration is considerable. So I'm kinda tired of people talking about sneakers like they're the ugly cousin. They do fine, it's just that some classes have a hard counter for them.

If this isn't about pvp or rp vs rp then what is it about? Are you guys balancing? If so, why start there? Why not expose weakness, hips, dragon druids or the entire FS class? Why not spells like divine power or owl's insight or mirror image, spells that break the server on a daily basis? Or how about sneaks just learn which players to avoid, you know, like they should be doing anyway.

Anyway, I've gone a bit off-topic in my insane rant. I guess I'm just left scratching my head a little. Why was that nerf made before others? Why was it then implemented in such a clunky way with the saves? It just doesn't add up in my mind. My fix would be simple:
*Lower Amplify to +10 ... no saves.
*Keep C/C as it was before.
*Make Amplify unable to be crafted into wands.
*Bring sneak gear up to parity with detect gear.

Why could this not have been done?

[mrm3ntalist]

m3nt you know I love you and all the work you do for this server (really, incredible) so I don't want you to think I'm taking a personal stab at you or anything, but I feel you're glossing over a few things in your previous post. Namely ...

The feelings are mutual. On top of that i really wish you will be able to find the time and join the QC since you can help a lot. This discussion proves that.

Wand are dispellable ... VERY dispellable. But do you seriously think pvp is going to really go down like this: Sneaker > hips, Non-sneaker > aha, hipster! uses wand of amplify, chases sneaker for 4 rounds, Sneaker > hips, Non-sneaker > aha, hipster! uses wand of amplify ... times 50 times number of wands of amplify they have. Really? Wands of Amplify are pretty terrible. They last 4 rounds, as soon as the sneaker goes back into stealth after 1 round, you have to find them again. Any sneaks worth their salt could play hit and run , or just evade for 4 rounds. You say wands have many charges, well, I haven't exactly seen any limit of uses of the hips ability, so the amount of times a wand can be used is irrelevant. Also, while our non-sneaking friend is constantly applying amplify, C/C and restoring health from crippling strike, our sneak is either killing him or getting away.

A lot of hiding happens when players RP their characters, yes. This makes sneaking around druids, rangers and maybe monks and bards very dangerous, as it should be. One question - why would a player just up and use a 4 round buff for no reason other than metagaming footsteps or buffs on the sneak? That's a small window of opportunity, really small. And it is crazy obvious in an RP context when someone does that - it's because they've heard footsteps, seen the sneak transition and then they go "Oop, time to use my 4 round wand of sneak destruction!" Without that wand however, sneaks can get around other character quite easily.

You describe a situation of what happens when that red button is clicked. Really i dont care what happens then. Allow the wands to work fully when in pvp, or even apply hide/ms penalties or even limit or disable hips. Really, I dont mind that.

If we are to discuss PvP this can be an endless discussion with cons and pros on every side.

It ISN'T easy to max spot now, at least not without making sacrifices. You want spot? Then you need another class ... let's say rogue, nice easy dip yeah? You get spot, evasion for expose and more skill points. Only the problem is that now you have only light armour and restricted weapons. No room for spot on EDM bards that want to stay safe from dispels - cause if a bard gets dispelled he's got problems. So all this just to get spot on a build that already has huge listen capabilities. Like I said, most won't bother.

You made a really good point here. For a sneak to have high hide/MS needs to make a lot of sacrifices. AC, HP, Saves. Currently, with these two wands and the extremely high bonus they provide, it allows to detect a sneak with minimum sacrifices. Lowering the amplify bonus simply means that someone who wants to detect sneaks, needs toa actually equip a couple of detection items. No more than that.

From what I hear, sneak gear is about to make a big come back. I get the feeling that is what is being pushed for, I've seen good sneak gear in the new shop and most likely there will be more to follow. The thing is m3nt, you talk like there aren't spells out there that boost hide or move silently. There are ... and their duration is considerable. So I'm kinda tired of people talking about sneakers like they're the ugly cousin. They do fine, it's just that some classes have a hard counter for them.

The suggestion was to reduce all spells that give extremely high bonuses to skills. Camouflage is amongst those. By definition, anything that helps exceed the engine limits is broken. +20 on a skill does exactly that.

Speaking of ugly cousins, sneaks and rogues in general were treated like that.
- Sneak gear was taken away and limited. ( nerf)
- Rogues were not allowed to recover epic traps ( nerf)
- Pickpocket was increased in difficulty ( nerf )
- Opening a chest breaks stealth ( a nerf that is not needed anymore )
- Uncanny dodge was fixed
- The urban legend of the spotter script and areas with hide/ms penalty
- umd is dispelable now

I am certain i am missing some more but tell me that this doesnt look like treating rogues like the ugly cousin. Name me another class that got so many nerfs. Compare it with what happens now where we try to limit a spell that gives a +20 bonus...

Anyway, lets talk about the things we agree.

The +20 is overkill, agreed. But I still think it should be a bard spell because it is a hard spell to know when to use. I don't think it should be able to be made into a wand at all, in any form of the spell. Much like holy sword and bless weapon.

Anyway, I've gone a bit off-topic in my insane rant. I guess I'm just left scratching my head a little. Why was that nerf made before others? Why was it then implemented in such a clunky way with the saves? It just doesn't add up in my mind. My fix would be simple:
*Lower Amplify to +10 ... no saves.
*Keep C/C as it was before.
*Make Amplify unable to be crafted into wands.
*Bring sneak gear up to parity with detect gear.

Why could this not have been done?

Believe it or not that is close to the initial suggestion. Simply limiting skills and not going the DC route.

Personally for the detection/sneak mechanics i would like to see the following.
- Someone who invests in detection should have a good chance detecting the sneak.
- Gear should be more balanced. I understand that Detection gear needs to be a bit more easily available, but not by much and certainly not the sorry state we currently are, where we hope for a veteran player to retire his character in order to have a chance to get sneak gear.
- No high skill bonus from spells. For both sides. Making it easy to reach the skill cap is breaking the game engine.

That is my view in general. Trust when i say that if we end up with undetectable sneak i will be the first to ask to swing the nerf bat, however the numbers dont support this.

[AC81]

Believe it or not that is close to the initial suggestion. Simply limiting skills and not going the DC route.

Personally for the detection/sneak mechanics i would like to see the following.
- Someone who invests in detection should have a good chance detecting the sneak.
- Gear should be more balanced. I understand that Detection gear needs to be a bit more easily available, but not by much and certainly not the sorry state we currently are, where we hope for a veteran player to retire his character in order to have a chance to get sneak gear.
- No high skill bonus from spells. For both sides. Making it easy to reach the skill cap is breaking the game engine.

That is my view in general. Trust when i say that if we end up with undetectable sneak i will be the first to ask to swing the nerf bat, however the numbers dont support this.

+1. If the server moved in this direction it would make lots of people happy, I think. I'll take this opportunity to bow out of the discussion, hoping that the DC options for Amplify and C/C get looked at more closely by those in charge.

[LISA100595]

Has anyone gotten C/C or Amplify to work at all?

I don't mind reducing the bonus they offer ( I do understand the reasons those have said above ) but this seems unnecessarily complicated just to nerf a couple spells. Why can't we just reduce the amount for instance of Amplify to 10 instead of 20?

I have brought this up before that The Will saves ( according to PNP / D&D ) are supposed to be rolled by the person the spell is cast On, and then Only if the person it is cast on is Unwilling. Since I am willing to cast it upon myself, I would not roll a save at all.

[Boddynock]

The other suggestion of making Amplify +1 listen per bard level up to a cap of +20 would take care of the wand issue as well, as wands have a fixed CL.

[metaquad4]

I don't really see the issue with the change, myself. Spotters still get their d20, and they still have their search mode.

As a none-dedicated spotter (no feats, no none-umd spells, 10 wisdom) you can get 52 with merchant-sold stuff.
33 - BASE+
(3*2) - Ring sold in the rogue shot+
3 - Gloves with +2 wis and spot/listen)+
2 - Helm+
2 - Chestpiece+
2 - Belt+
2 - Boots+
2 - Regen Cloak+
=52 (+5 from clairvoyance to equal 57)
Then, the spotter gets their d20, which rolls every second in search mode (which, you are always in if you are spotting). You are going to hit 20 pretty frigging quick. But, lets say you don't hit 20. You hit 15. Now, you are at 72 spot.

Listen would be the same, save for the fact that the rings are +2 listen (+3 spot, +2 listen).
50 Listen (+5 from clairaudience, +10 from amplify).
You have 65 listen, plus your d20 in search mode. We'll say it rolls 15 too. 80 listen.

Say you didn't want to switch out your armor for spotting, since its the only piece you can't change during combat. Lets reduce both numbers by 2. You are left with 70 spot and 78 listen, without any investment into wisdom, items in the loot table, or any other buffs/feats that would increase spot or listen. And with that d20 that rolls every second, its more than likely you are going to hit 20, not 15.

There is one really annoying thing about it. The "save vs spell" role spams everyone in the area. Making that hidden would be wonderful.

Idk about making it a static bonus. Imo, don't need to nerf it any further. Unless making it a static bonus is the only way to change the save vs spell spam the spells generate. I think the spell changes are part of the "draw closer to PnP" initiative. Though, Clairvoyance/Audience in PnP was a scrying sensor that didn't move, but didn't trigger a save either.