Spirits vs ghosts - lore discussion

[King Of Clouds]

I have a character whose wife is a spirit shaman and a few days ago I participated into a campfire discussion concerning spirits and their nature. The chat escalated into OOC debate about the nature of spirits and the definition of what they actually are. According to the other player (as far as I understood him anyway), spirits are natural incorporeal creatures (fey), but never "actual people" because the souls of all dead folks are sent to the Wall of Faithless when they die.

This is however, in a minor contradiction with the information I've read from lorebooks (3E or 3.5E), particularily Unapproachable East. In UE there are multiple cases where a human has become telthor. The book explains that Telthors are simply spirit guardians of Rashemen, who're created by the magic of the land. What I understood from the books is that they are intelligent, capable in communicating with the languages that they had once they were alive and for all intends and purposes function as intelligent ghosts without being actual undead. The only noteworthy thing that I found in the book was that if they're resurrected they come back (if willing) as regular people with no recollection of their time as spirits, but that sounds to me more like a rule-based issue rather than explanation of their nature. The book doesn't answer to the question if Telthor creatures (or similar to telthor-like fey template beings) can exist elsewhere in FR.

What I do know from FRWiki and other sources however, is that spirit shaman is basically the most common form of divine spellcaster among pseudo-intelligent savage species. This would have to mean that spirits have to be common throughout entire Faerûn. This makes me wonder what exactly are spirits outside Rashemen and how are they created, etc. Also another side question is that apparently only spirit shamans are able to see spirits naturally, so apparently they differ somehow fundamentally from a pixie who generally hides behind invisibility magic and that can be seen by anyone with regular see invisibility spell.

The topic becomes particularily juicy if you think about the concept of historical RL shamans (at leats of the Northern Eurasia), who according to cultural studies generally communicated with the spirits of deceased people or ancestors in order to get information from matters that mortals cannot perceive. Often these rituals were induced by ingesting hallucinogenic drugs (usually mushrooms), which it explains why the shamans considered these events so real. Now that there's this discussion I'm no longer that certain whether you can RP spirit shamans as their RL equivalents.

Normally during my approach to such questions I go to FRWiki and start investigating what have they written about the matter. However, the wiki doesn't have any specific topic about spirits precisely. The closest related article explains the class "Shaman" (4E version of spirit shaman), but it answers poorly to the fundamental question What exactly are (telthor and other) spirits and how do they differ from ghosts and other undead and corporeal fey like pixies?

Since we have the Base Class whose RP focuses entirely around this question, I'd like to hear the official DM ruling related to this matter. I'd also welcome opinions and lore of regular players concerning the nature of spirits in Forgotten Realms settings.

[DM Golem]

Tips and tricks!

I suspect most humanoid casters have NPC classes, not Spirit Shaman, though

[LISA100595]

Playing a Spirit Shaman for 8 years now as my main character ( yes Elvina is a Spirit Shaman not a paladin.. I know shocking right lol ) I hope I can help out with this.... I'll try to get you my source material if I haven't lost some of it in hard drive crashes over the years.

[NegInfinity]

never "actual people" because the souls of all dead folks are sent to the Wall of Faithless when they die.

Whoa. Wall of the faithless is a piece of information a character most likely will not possess, unless they have very high lore (in whatever area wall of the faithless belong now).

Aside from that...

D&D has few ways to escape death, so not all folks die.
There are also ways to tamper with souls, so not all who die will make it to the wall.

how do they differ from ghosts and other undead

Can't tell much on nature of telthors, but many undead do not hold original soul in them.

Ghosts are covered by Libris Mortis... the funny thing is that libris mortis offer several explanations for the origin of the undead (whichever DM prefers), however it does mention that at least some undead ghost/undead do not have original soul in them.

Undead can be spawned by atrocities and arise when an extremely evil deed is performed in a region. One of the possible explanations says that undead are linked to negative energy plane. It is very different from "creature that died defending the region".

----

Either way... it wouldn't surprise me to have actual people become spirits. It is a magical universe, so many things are possible.

If you want a DM ruling, try "Questions for DMs" subforum.

[Rhifox]

I play a spirit shaman as my main. I go by the animist style on her, where every single thing that exists has a spirit. Every rock and tree, your armor and weapons, a mountain or a city. This is how spirits are described in Oriental Adventures (which Complete Divine directs you to look at when determining what is a spirit). Similar descriptions of shamans and spirits are given in Faiths and Avatars, a 2E Forgotten Realms sourcebook.

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Animism is the belief that spirits inhabit every part of the natural world. In the world of Oriental Adventures, everything has a spirit-from the grandest mountain to the lowliest rock, from the great ocean to a babbling brook, from the sun and moon to a samurai's ancestral sword. All these objects, and the spirits that inhabit them, are alive and sentient, though some are more aware, alert, and intelligent than others. Some are also more powerful than others-some might even be called deities. But all are worthy of respect and even veneration.

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Nature Spirit

Nature spirits embody the essence of certain natural locations, objects, or plants in much the same way as elementals are incarnate elements. Like elementals, they can be wild and dangerous--but they are also generally wise and intelligent, and characters who treat them with respect can win their aid.

The life force of a nature spirit is tethered to an object of feature of the natural world--a rock, tree, stream, lake, river, mountain, or island, for example. A nature spirit rarely strays far from this object or place on the Material Plane or the Spirit World. In its natural form, rarely seen except in the Spirit World, a nature spirit looks like the feature it is associated with. These spirits are most commonly encountered polymorphed into an attractive human form.

Nature spirits speak Common and the Spirit Tongue.

A nature spirit has two aspects--one good, one evil. The good aspect leads the nature spirit to be helpful and kind, while the evil aspect makes it savage and cruel. Most times, the two aspects coexist in a harmonic tension, neither one dominant. Spells and sacrifices can sometimes coax one aspect into dominance, however. A nature spirit whose evil aspect is dominant attacks anyone who trespasses on its territory or threatens the place or object to which its lifeforce is tied.

Small Nature Spirit
Small nature spirits include those of twigs, small stones, and streams. They are most commonly encountered in the form of a small child. Their evil aspects often lead them to play annoying or mischeious pranks.

Medium Nature Spirit
Medium-size nature spirits are the most common variety. They are the manifestations of trees, flowers, rocks, and bamboo groves. They usually take the form of an attractive human, and often marry mortals (producing spirit folk children).

Large Nature Spirit
Large nature spirits--those that inhabit mountains, boulders, ancient trees, and small islands--are the most powerful of their sort. They tend to be more haughty and irritable than their lesser brethren. Mortals often go to great lenghts to avoid upsetting Large nature spirits, presenting them with frequent offerings and consulting shamans before undertaking an enterprise that might anger them.

For ghosts specifically, well it depends on how you're defining ghosts here. Simply the spirits of the dead? Or the actual creature? The actual creature is often someone whose soul stayed behind because of trauma or duress and so would be their real soul. But the general manner of a spirit of someone who had died is typically going to be a spiritual imprint of the person who passed on, but not their actual soul. Read the Speak with Dead spell, which is an ability that shamans should have access to as well.

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/speakWithDead.htm

This spell does not let you actually speak to the person (whose soul has departed). It instead draws on the imprinted knowledge stored in the corpse. The partially animated body retains the imprint of the soul that once inhabited it, and thus it can speak with all the knowledge that the creature had while alive. The corpse, however, cannot learn new information.

Indeed, it can’t even remember being questioned.

As for telthor, I treat telthor as a local Rashemen word and cultural understanding of a guardian spirit. Guardian spirits can exist anywhere, and can be of various types (including undead like ghosts, baelnorns, mummies, etc). They are spirits that are powerful enough to take a physical form and protect a specific area or object they are attached to. All spirits want to protect the sites they are attached to, but usually their abilities in this are limited to natural events. Guardian spirits actually have a physical form through which to interact with the Material Plane. Telthor, the word, specifically refers to guardian spirits in Rashemen, but similar beings can exist anywhere else in the world without being called a telthor.

[LISA100595]

Here are a couple resources that I utilize, can't remember who I sent this to before but I hope it helps you

Additionally for Spirit Shaman abilities and Information about elementals:

From: http://nwn2.wikia.com/wiki/Spirit_Shaman

Creatures that are considered spirits include fey, elementals, and incorporeal undead such as wraiths and shadows.

Warning:

Many of these abilities will not work against some spirits pre-MotB expansion, as these creatures have still not been properly identified as "spirits".

and from:
http://dndtools.pw/classes/spirit-shaman/

Detect Spirits (Sp): The spirit shaman's spirit guide perceives nearby spirits. At will, the spirit shaman can use detect spirits as a spell-like ability. It functions just like detect undead, except it detects creatures that are considered spirits.

Weaken Spirits (Su): At 16th level and higher, a spirit shaman can choose to strip spirits of their defenses instead of damaging them with her chastise spirits ability. When a spirit is weakened, it loses its spell resistance and any damage reduction overcome by magic weapons, silver or cold iron weapons, and aligned weapons (but not damage reduction overcome by adamantine weapons or not overcome by anything). In addition, an incorporeal spirit loses its immunity to nonmagical attack, its 50% chance to ignore damage from corporeal sources, and its ability to move into or through objects.

Chastising spirits is a standard action that deals 1d6 damage/shaman level to all spirits within 30 feet of the shaman. The affected spirits get a Will save (DC 10+ shaman level + Cha modifier) for half damage.

WHAT IS A SPIRIT?

Several of the spirit shaman's abilities affect spirits. For purposes of the spirit shaman's ability, a "spirit" includes any of the following creatures:
All incorporeal undead
All fey
All elementals
Creatures in astral form or with astral bodies (but not a creature physically present on the Astral Plane)
All creatures of the spirit subtype (see Oriental Adventures)
Spirit folk and telthors (see Unapproachable East)
Spirit creatures created by spells such as dream sight or wood wose (see Chapter 7).

In the spirit shaman's worldview, elementals and fey are simply spirits of nature, and incorporeal undead are the spirits of the dead.

[LISA100595]

This link has much the same information..

http://www.realmshelps.net/charbuild/cl ... aman.shtml

[LISA100595]

Actually I was going to ask Raseal if he could add this in to the Spirit Shaman Class , just for flavor but I haven't since he's so busy right now doing all the updates and fixes etc

Exorcism (Su): Starting at 13th level, as a full-round action, a spirit shaman can force a possessing creature or spirit out of the body it inhabits (for example, a ghost with the malevolence ability). To exorcise a possessing creature, she makes a class level check (also adding her Charisma modifier, if any), against a DC of 10 + the possessing creature's HD + its Charisma modifier (if any). If her result equals or exceeds the DC, she succeeds in forcing the possessor from the body, with the normal results based on its method of possession. A spirit so exorcised cannot attempt to possess the same victim for 24 hours.

[LISA100595]

There are more references but in conclusion to the OP question:

Spirit Shamans can "see, hear and speak to" All of the Spirits all around everywhere... imagine them floating all around all the time. lol

Spirits are not Ghosts but can be used interchangeably with the word "Souls". For instance, some Spirits are Undead, but not all Undead are Spirits.

And when a creature ( this includes animals or people too ) dies, it may become a Spirit and when it does, it "Usually" is bound to the place it was protecting when it died.

The way I RP my Spirit Guide, spirit of the land "Spike" is that he died protecting Elvina and now has become bound to Elvina as one of my Spirit Guides.

I hope this helps, its just a small portion of the information.

[Rhifox]

As far as resources go, Faiths and Avatars (2E), Oriental Adventures (3E), Primal Power (4E) and Encyclopaedia Divine: Shamans - The Call of the Wild (3E, Third Party). These sources don't include the spirit shaman class specifically, but they are great sources of inspiration for playing shamans of all flavors, and on the nature of spirits and the spirit world.

From Faiths and Avatars:

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SHAMAN

Shamans are tribal priests found in savage, barbaric, or nomadic societies. In their homelands, shamans serve their tribes in much the same way that clerics serve the common people of more civilized lands. They act as guides, protectors, and advisers, using their magical powers to strengthen and defend their tribes. Shamans often serve as the keepers of knowledge and legend for their peoples and lead their tribes in the various rites and ceremonies required by their tribes' belief systems. Player character shamans may still be associated with their tribes, they may be wanderers or exiles who have abandoned their duties, or they may be pursuing an extended goal for their tribes that takes them away from their people for a long period. Most Forgotten Realms campaign setting beast cults, such as the numerous Uthgardt beast cults, are served by shamans.

Shamans may be of any alignment. They are always found in tribal or barbaric scultures. If players wish to run shamans in a more civilized campaign settings, their characters are considered to be barbaric foreigners by most common folk they meet. The shaman's arduous life in uncivilized lands requires a good Constitution, and Wisdom is required for dealing with tribal matters and speaking to the spirits. Shamans with Wisdom scores of 16 or better earn 10% bonus to the experience points they gain. Shamans progress in experience levels as do clerics.

Shamans are unusual characters in an adventuring party. Like druids, they are not front-line fighters, but they also lack the high-powered combat spells that druids command. However, a shaman's mysterious spirit powers allow him or her to make use of magic that is usually out of the reach of low-level characters. A shaman who demonstrates intelligence and respect in dealing with the spirits can be an extremely effective character in a number of situations. Shamans view themselves as advisers and guides to a party of adventurers and often have an uneducated but insightful view on the more civilized societies they visit.

Shamans may wear any armor normally associated with their tribes. In the absence of more specific information, tribal armor is usually hide, leather, or studded leather with a tough wooden, wicker, or hide-covered shield. Similarly shamans may use tribal weapons, which usually include the short bow, club, dagger, dart, hand axe, harpoon, javelin, knife, quarterstaff, sling, and spear. Blowguns might be appropriate for shamans of jungle tribes, or light lances and composite bows for shamans of tribal horsemen.

Shamans may use magical items normally usable by priests. They have a nonweapon proficiency crossover with the warrior group and can learn priest or warrior proficiences at the normal cost. Shamans have major access to the spheres of all, animal, summoning, travelers, protection, and wards, and minor access to the healing and plant spheres. Shamans never gain followers or establish strongholds. Good-aligned shamans may turn undead, and neutral or evil shamans may command undead.

In addition to their priest spells, shamans have a special connection to the spirit world and can call on the spirits for guidance, knowledge, or magical aid. While shamans often function as priests of a tribal deity, their primary concern is the spirit world. To a shaman, the physical world is not the entirety of existence. The spirits of animals, nature, and the tribe's dead are always near, and interacting with these spirits is the shaman's greatest duty and responsibility.

SHAMAN SPIRIT POWERS
Shamans each begin play with one minor spirit ally or guide of their choice. As they rise in level they learn the rites necessary to call additional spirits and seek their favor. Spirits are individuals--speaking to a spirit of the dead means the shaman is in contact with one particular deceased individual. Dozens of spirits exist for each species of animal, representing every aspect of the animal's existence. In addition, a near-infinite number of nature spirits of the land, air, and water embody different aspects of the natural world.

Performing the ceremony to call a spirit for the first time requires a tenday (a week in settings other than the Forgotten Realms campaign setting) or more of fasting, prayer, and solitude in the appropriate location. If a shaman is trying to call a wolf spirit, she or he must find a location frequented by wolves, and if a shaman is trying to call an ancestral spirit, the shaman should perform the ceremony at the individual's burial site. At the conclusion of this tenday-long (week-long) ceremony, the spirit appears, and the shaman establishes contact with it. From that time forward, the shaman may attempt to contact the spirit anywhere or anytime to seek information or request a favor of the spirit--see Calling Spirits, below. When shaman characters begin play, it is assumed that they have each already performed the ceremony to attract their first spirit guides.

When a spirit casts a spell for a shaman, the spirit casts the spell either at the shaman's level or at the experience level normally required for a priest to cast a spell of that level, whichever is greater.

SPIRITS OF THE DEAD: These ancestral spirits are individuals who were renowned for their wisdom, skill, or courage in life. Minor spirits may be recent relatives of the shaman, while major spirits are great heroes and wise people of the tribe. A great spirit of the dead is a chieftain, shaman, or other personage of legendary standing. While spirits of the dead may seem to be frightening allies, they are actually very protective of their living protégés and bear few grudges against the living.

Spirits of the dead know many things. Naturally, they are familiar with any details or events of their own lifetimes. They are able to perceive a shaman's likely fate or future and can offer advice in times of touch choices. Spirits of the dead can also provide some measure of protection for a shaman and his or her allies by using their powers on the shaman's behalf. Minor spirits can invoke the powers of augury, feign death, prayer, or speak with dead on behalf of the shaman. Major spirits can invoke divination, commune, or find the path/lose the path for the shaman. Great spirits can invoke raise dead/slay living, forbiddance, or astral spell for the shaman. Note that most of these spells are normally outside the shaman's spheres of access. In addition, shamans often gain other effects in roleplaying a conversation with these spirits, such as information or guidance in difficult choices.

ANIMAL SPIRITS: Shamans live in a world in which animals are a vital part of human life. Animals provide food, shelter, clothing, and tools for a shaman's people, and the animal spirits are revered for their wisdom and knowledge. Minor and major spirits are embodiments of an archetype, such as the Old Wolf, the Sleeping Bear, or the Hunting Eagle. Great animal spirits are the leaders of these lesser spirits and contain in themselves everything the animal stands for--the Great Bear, the Great Wolf, and so on.

Animal spirits are powerful, but they are also less inclined to offer advice or guidance to shamans. Their interest lies in ensuring that shamans are respectful toward their species and that shamans help to guide others in dealing with animal spirits' kin. They are not very interested in aiding shamans in their own affairs. The spirits of game animals such as moose or deer do not mind if shamans or their peoples hunt the animal, but they grow angry if the hunting is wanton or disrespectful.

Animal spirits have knowledge of events that have affected their species in the local area and have a number of powers they can use on a shaman's behalf. Minor animal spirits can aid shamans by using animal friendship, speak with animals, or animal summoning I. In addition, an animal spirit can grant a limited form of clairaudience and clairvoyance by allowing a shaman to see through the eyes and hear through the ears of an animal of the spirit's species within a range of one mile. Animals of the species in question will never attack the shaman or anyone under his or her protection unless the shaman has angered the spirit or the animals are magically controlled.

Major animal spirits can use animal summoning II, grant shamans the speed or movement powers of the animal (flying, swimming, or running at the animal's base speed), or transform shamans into the shape of the animal, similar a druid's shapechange. Great spirits can use animal summoning III, heal a shaman or one person under his or her protection (or harm an enemy), or become tangible and aid the shaman in a form resembling Mordenkainen's faithful hound in abilities but shaped in the form of the animal.

SPIRITS OF NATURE: The most reclusive and powerful spirits are the elemental spirits of nature. These beings represent the physical world around shamans. The strength or power of the feature the spirit represents determines whether it is considered a minor, major, or great spirit. A stream, copse, or hilltop may be home to a minor spirit; a river, moderately-sized forest, or canyon may be guarded by a major spirit; and a mountain, large forest, or mighty river may be the home of a great spirit. Spirits of nature frequently take on humanlike features or characteristiscs when dealing with shamans, so a spirit might be known as Old Mountain, River Woman, or Forest Walker.

Spirits of nature are even more distant than animal spirits, but they do feel some attachment to the people and creatures who live nearby. A river spirit is likely to be protective of the village built on its banks as long as the people show respect to it. Nature spirits often change with the seasons, so a river spirit in the spring flood may be wild, capricious, and dangerous to deal with, while a forest spirit in winter may be sleeping and hard to rouse.

Spirits of nature are generally well-informed about anything that has taken place in their location and can relate this information to shamans. Spirits of nature are also capable of using potent powers on a shaman's behalf. The principle difference between minor and great spirits is the size of the area in which they can be summoned. Minor spirits are bound to one specific site not more than a few hundred yards across, major spirits are limited to 5 or 10 square miles, and great spirits can act in areas the size of small nations. Note that the areas of effect of spell-like abilities the spirits can enact remain unchanged--a great spirit is powerful because the region in which it is available to assist the shaman is much larger than a minor spirit's range.

Spirits of nature can help a shaman by invoking a number of spell-like powers for the shaman. Unlike elementals, spirits of nature include aspects of vegetation and all the elements of their home, so a mountain spirit has influence over earth and air as well as the forests that grow on the mountain's slopes. The abilities available to spirits of nature are described below. The reverse forms of reversible spells are able to be granted also, though the listed form is commonly requested.

LAND SPIRITS: ... Land spirits may be associated with mountains, plains, forests, plateaus, canyons, mesas, or any other distinct land feature.

AIR SPIRITS: ... Air spirits are associated with high peaks, windswept plains or valleys, or seasonal winds such as a sirocco or the north wind of the winter.

WATER SPIRITS: ... Water spirits are associated with lakes, streams, rivers, or seas.

CALLING SPIRITS
Once shamans have performed the initial ceremonies that attract spirits and establish connections to the beings, they can summon those spirits anytime to seek the information, favors, and powers described above. A shaman's location does not matter. Spirits can come to shamans anywhere, even though spirits of nature may not be able to help them outside their homes.

Tu summon a spirit, a shaman must chant, pray, and perform a ceremonial dance for at least one turn. ...

If the spirit is not angry at the shaman for some reason, it appears with a successful roll. Only shamans can see the spirit or speak to it. Other characters may be aware of chills, strange odors, shimmering hazes, unusual gusts of wind, and other signs. The shaman can converse with the spirit for one round per character level, asking one question per round. Asking a favor of a spirit, such as the use of a spell-like ability, requires one round for minor spirits or abilities, two for major, and three for abilities that can only be granted by great spirits. During this request the shaman explains what she or he wishes of the spirit and why the spirit should grant help. If the DM thinks it is appropriate, the player must roleplay this conversation. If the spirit agrees to help, the spell-like effect is granted to the shaman, who may retain it in reserve for up to one full day until the shaman is ready to invoke the spirit's power. A shaman can only hold on favor in reserve at a time and cannot request another of any spirit until the held ability is used.

SPIRITS AS NPCS: Spirits are individuals, and they have long memories. A shaman who takes actions the spirits find offensive or who asks their help in questionable circumstances may be denied assistance just because the spirit does not feel like being helpful. The DM may find it useful to refer to Table 59: Encounter Reactions in the DMG. Simply rate the spirit's frame of mind as threatening, hostile, indifferent, or friendly depending on how the shaman has been acting and how outrageous the shaman's request is to the spirit. It is a good idea to create personalities, motivations, and attitudes for the spirits the shaman deals with most often.

Spirits do not have game statistics. Normal mortals have no means of injuring them, although other divine creatures may be able to do so. Only greater spirits can take a physical form, and even they are reluctant to do so. Greater spirits of the dead can briefly resume their living form with the appropriate class and abilities; animal spirits can appear as a double-sized version of normal variety; and spirits of nature can appear as 12-HD elementals. In physical form, spirits can only be injured by +2 or better magical weapons. Even if they are "killed," they actually only retreat from the scene for a short while.

ANGERING THE SPIRITS: A shaman can completely alienate the spirits by taking particularly offensive actions. If the offense is temporary or unintentional, the spirit simply refuses to answer any calls for a suitable period of time--one tenday (one week in alternate campaign settings) to a year may be appropriate. If the offense was deliberate or permanent in nature, the spirit severs its connection to the shaman and cannot be called again until the shaman atones for the offense, repairs whatever damage she or he did and repeats the tenday-long (week-long) summoning ceremony.

From Oriental Adventures:

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SHAMAN
If a cleric's basic creed is that the handiwork of the deities is everywhere, a shamans simple assertion is that the deities themselves are everywhere. Shamans are intermediaries between the mortal world and the realm of spirits-the vast multitude of living beings that infuse the entire world with divine essence. Shamans play a vital role in the world of Oriental Adventures-communicating with ancestor spirits, demons, nature spirits, and the most powerful of spirits, who might be considered deities. The shaman offers sacrifices, prayers, and services to the spirits, and in return gains the favor of patron spirits who bestow spells and other magical abilities upon him. ...

Adventures : Shamans often go on adventures not because of any desire of their own, but as a direct result of their unique relationship with the spirit world. Ancestor spirits often have their own agendas-deeds left undone or wrongs unavenged-and call on their shaman descendants to carry them out. Peasants and nobles alike often summon shamans if evil spirits or undead monsters cause trouble. Even nature spirits, normally unconcerned with the affairs of humanity, might request assistance from a shaman if an evil influence (such as a bajang or buso) troubles the natural world. Shamans who traffic with evil spirits are often driven to commit heinous deeds. Shamans are both blessed and burdened by their gifts, and may sometimes feel like pawns in the games and machinations of the spirit world.

Characteristics: Shamans use divine magic, much like the clerics of the Player's Handbook. In addition to healing, shaman spells naturally include means of contacting and communicating with spirits, winning favors from them, or warding against their influence. Shaman spells are also more strongly oriented toward nature than cleric spells. A shaman's spells are granted by spirits rather than deities. Shamans have some power over undead, but not as great as clerics have . Nor are they as fearsome in combat as clerics, although they learn unarmed combat techniques as they advance in level.

Alignment: Most shamans are ofgood alignment, cooperating with kindly ancestor spirits and opposing evil spirits and undead . A few shamans, however, side with the evil spirits, using the power the spirits bestow to increase their own power in the world.

Background: Individuals are often drawn to the shaman class because they possess a natural gift for dealing with spirits, rather than the other way around. As with sorcerers, this gift typically manifests at puberty, though sometimes even young children display an unusual ability to see and communicate with spirits. The transition from a gifted child or young adult to a powerful shaman, however, is not easy. Typically, a shaman-to-be spends months in the wilderness, fasting and communing with the spirits, until finding two spirits to serve as patrons in a formal and ritualized relationship. These two spirits grant the character his first spells, at which point he truly becomes a shaman .

...

Other Classes: While no adventurer will begrudge a shaman's power to heal and otherwise help an adventuring party, most adventurers view shamans with at least a hint of fear, awe, or wonder. A shaman's powers are otherworldly, and the spirits that grant those powers often manifest in ways that make mundane-minded fighters and rogues more than a little uncomfortable . The shaman occupies a unique and sometimes dangerous position on the border between the spirit world and the mortal world, and many characters find that position unnerving. For their part, shamans tend to look kindly on members of most other classes, humbly offering their powers for the good of the party as a whole.

And honestly? The biggest piece of advice I'd give is to avoid getting into OOC arguments with people about what is and isn't a spirit. Keep it to IC. Shamans are characters with uneducated, unorthodox beliefs. A spirit is whatever your character believes to be a spirit. Mechanics might determine what creatures are actually affected by your abilities, but a shaman's beliefs might include things that aren't affected by their abilities. Shamans do not come from educated backgrounds where the exact nature of the universe's cosmology is known to them. A shaman's understanding of the universe is whatever they believe it to be. Let other characters believe you are wrong or insane. Our characters see things that few do, and can put together whatever worldview they believe they need to explain the reality that they see.

[King Of Clouds]

Thank you all for your replies. This conversation has been very helpful.

And honestly? The biggest piece of advice I'd give is to avoid getting into OOC arguments with people about what is and isn't a spirit. Keep it to IC. Shamans are characters with uneducated, unorthodox beliefs. A spirit is whatever your character believes to be a spirit. Mechanics might determine what creatures are actually affected by your abilities, but a shaman's beliefs might include things that aren't affected by their abilities. Shamans do not come from educated backgrounds where the exact nature of the universe's cosmology is known to them. A shaman's understanding of the universe is whatever they believe it to be. Let other characters believe you are wrong or insane. Our characters see things that few do, and can put together whatever worldview they believe they need to explain the reality that they see.

I think you misunderstood what exactly happened there.

Generally speaking I have absolutely no problem with the fact if other characters disagree or argue with my character ICly. Usually people are indifferent for such "borderline lore" details, but in this case the other player suddenly interrupted the IC chat with his OOC comments essentially claiming that the way how I RP'ed the matter wasn't appropriate to the setting. When my character -should- ICly know something about spirits and I get this sort of reaction from someone I do want to find out what is the exact ruling rather than just saying "my character is insane and has no idea how the world works" which would actually be bad roleplay.

Also it should be noted that I the spirit shaman isn't my own character, but it's my girlfriend's. I ask these questions also in order to help her to learn to roleplay better I like to give her sources that are verified. This sort of semi-extreme reaction made me wonder if I have made some fundamental misunderstanding of the rules on my own part. The fact that FRWiki has no info about the matter didn't help.

In any case, I've found quite good information from here and it seems like the spirits are generally more focused for eastern rather than western part of Toril. I'd still appreciate to hear more "official" ruling on the matter to avoid misunderstandings from OOC point of view.

[Rhifox]

Usually people are indifferent for such "borderline lore" details, but in this case the other player suddenly interrupted the IC chat with his OOC comments essentially claiming that the way how I RP'ed the matter wasn't appropriate to the setting.

Yeah, that's a bit meh, IMO. IC should be left IC. I was just trying to say, that one should try not to let those kinds of comments bother them because even if a character's interpretation is wrong, it shouldn't matter for the RP. Someone leaping to OOC like that comes across as just trying to 'win' an IC argument, which is unfortunate.

I apologize about the mixup regarding the player of the shaman.

In any case, I've found quite good information from here and it seems like the spirits are generally more focused for eastern rather than western part of Toril. I'd still appreciate to hear more "official" ruling on the matter to avoid misunderstandings from OOC point of view.

The main difference between western and eastern is that eastern has a fully realized Spirit World as an independent planar location that can be visited by characters. While western Toril doesn't have that (ref. Player's Guide to Faerun), spirits do still exist in western Toril. They might be weaker and more likely to be sleeping and unaware of the world (because local traditions do not often venerate them, which gives them less power), but they still exist. If they didn't, shamans wouldn't have access to any abilities or spells in western Toril.