The Balance of Power

[Steve]

You mean events designed for good only characters? Which events are those?

Well, eventing against the General of Larloch's Crypt, in order to save Baldur's Gate, that could very well be considered designed for good-only characters. Sure, the Thayans found a way to benefit from the attack on Baldur's Gate, but that is such a thin and particular avenue that relied on opportune and intelligent thinking on part of the Players of that Guild.

I for one was not aware of any invitations or avenues for evil-minded PCs to work against the 1351 Server Campaign, unless the Player themselves made that effort. The Virtuous Soil was not exactly...inclusive. And with mixed results, in the end!

Goodness persists; Evil resists. It would be fun to reverse that for a Year, on BGTSCC...and see what happens.

But M3nt, there is a small problem with events open to all Alignments: it usually makes no sense! PCs are simply in those events cause they want DM attention, and XP, and Custom Stuff. And have you played an Evil-minded Toon in an event with a bunch of good-minded toons? :

Good Guy: "Let's save the princess!"
Evil Guy:" Let's save the princess...then ransom her to the King for lots of coin!"
Good Guy slays Evil Guy in the name of their God. End of RP.

Yes, it is a crass example, but it can get pretty damn weird and character-breaking to shove one's Toon into a place that makes any kinda sense they'd be in that "open event."

What is missing, in short, is some form of Evil NPC-led quest/missions/campaigns, in my humble opinion. Something I'm trying to advocate for currently!!

[mrm3ntalist]

You mean events designed for good only characters? Which events are those?

Well, eventing against the General of Larloch's Crypt, in order to save Baldur's Gate, that could very well be considered designed for good-only characters. Sure, the Thayans found a way to benefit from the attack on Baldur's Gate, but that is such a thin and particular avenue that relied on opportune and intelligent thinking on part of the Players of that Guild.

I for one was not aware of any invitations or avenues for evil-minded PCs to work against the 1351 Server Campaign, unless the Player themselves made that effort. The Virtuous Soil was not exactly...inclusive. And with mixed results, in the end!

Goodness persists; Evil resists. It would be fun to reverse that for a Year, on BGTSCC...and see what happens.

More evil guilds participated in that plot. I dont know how it turned out in the end, but i know they had something to do.

However, if players ask for single character events, you know well that wont happen no matter good or evil. At least not until more players are involved.

But M3nt, there is a small problem with events open to all Alignments: it usually makes no sense! PCs are simply in those events cause they want DM attention, and XP, and Custom Stuff. And have you played an Evil-minded Toon in an event with a bunch of good-minded toons? :

Good Guy: "Let's save the princess!"
Evil Guy:" Let's save the princess...then ransom her to the King for lots of coin!"
Good Guy slays Evil Guy in the name of their God. End of RP.

Yes, it is a crass example, but it can get pretty damn weird and character-breaking to shove one's Toon into a place that makes any kinda sense they'd be in that "open event."

What is missing, in short, is some form of Evil NPC-led quest/missions/campaigns, in my humble opinion. Something I'm trying to advocate for currently!!

No need to say more. We are in total agreement about this.

[Moltrazahn]

I think it boils down to what we want to achieve, and what is possible to achieve, both from a mechanical perspective, and a roleplaying one. So ill just throw my own two cents into this topic.

Yes, playing evil can be a lot of fun! but... you need to be careful where you play, and with what people, and unless you know how to do it, that can quickly exclude you from certain groups. An example of this is ... let's say Darkhold... Yes, Darkhold is super awesome, well designed and a pretty cool location! ... However If your the proclaimed "evil" person sitting alone up there, banned from the Rp-hotspots... well, then Darkhold just becomes a metaphor for "Its lonely at the top".

We are all here to roleplay to some extent, and if being too extreme in either direction prevents us from being included in roleplay... well, then it is not worth it in the end.

Many claim that they are fine with excessive character-alignment but (and it is a big but) they will react as their character would in given situation. Now... This aint per say a bad thing! however... given our community size, various locations and play-time... Those that chose to go the more extreme way often find themselves excluded because groups of the opposite faction/alignment (or rather their characters) will respond with equal measure. This often means pvp, or hunting, branding, gossiping... or things that eventually turn into such.

Now, I myself... ain't usually in this position. But having playing since 09, and on other servers, the pattern tends to repeat itself. Evil character who are in the spotlight, tends to get exiled, haunted and even badgered OOC-ly by certain more hardcore/extreme elements of the opposite community. And in the end, this colors the players perspective on the experience, and the community (sadly).

Therefore... to end my own rant on this... Evil should be played in a manner where you don't go all Sith Overlord on people. Because that ends up turning you into a target. And there are sadly people in the community whom will harass you ic'ly.. and ooc'ly for this. This is a shame, and sadly a reality.

Ps. It should be noted that ooc-haunting others aint cool, and tho it takes time... one should always remember that both are here to have fun, the moment we aint cooperating and people start taking in character things ooc'ly... Well, then your just not fun to play with.

As a last note, this can also happen to extremely good characters! However, as the main population plays on the surface, and the primary population are lawful (or pretend to be) being openly evil is a hard job, and I respect those that try doing it with a raised head.

Okay, rant over

[Planehopper]

I think if you are suggesting that just 5% of the active player characters are evil you are off by a long ways. If I were to pick a number out of the air, I would guess that the number is more like 20-25%.

Is that unbalanced?

Heck no. Evil isn't supposed to be man-for-man balanced with good. That wouldn't make any dang sense, especially in a setting like the sword coast. Evil isn't endemic to most of the civilized races that we play. Do you think more than 1 in 4 or 5 people should be evil?

Then you have to factor in that evil is..well.. evil. It isn't as likely that they will unite in the face of good the way that good unites in the face of evil. That's just the nature of the beast. Evil is generally selfish, or in the case of LE alignments, more zealous in adhering to their viewpoints.

And how many evil people would be dumb enough, or evil enough, to be open about it? There is a reason why serial killers, tax evaders, bank robbers, and child abusers don't out themselves publicly. It pays to blend in.

So IC they will be fewer, they will be more spread out, and less likely to unite.

Then you have to factor in the OOC aspects. It is hard to align with some of the attitudes and feelings of entitlement. I understand where some of it comes from. I really do. When we started the thieves/assassins guild here years and years ago a DM held an event for the Fist in which our entire hideout was burnt out, NPC leadership killed, etc.. ran us all out of town - all while we were offline and unaware. Lol. So I know how it can feel to be behind the 8 ball. Luckily nothing like that happens anymore. Now we have Roaringshore, Darkhold, The Underdark, The Thieves Guild, and countless other smaller guilds and areas to RP in or about.

Whats stopping the player RP? If the player RP is going long and strong, I guarantee a DM would pick it up. The impetus is always, and has always, been on the players to create the RP and the DMs to help it flourish. Are you saying that's not the case?

Leave items off the table or start another thread. It has 0 to do with alignment.

[DM Theophanies]

I thought I'd post how the team views the various settlements around the server:

NPC Settlements
Baldur's Gate: LN, and tolerant. If it leans anywhere, its towards good (it has 1/4 good Dukes, and server lore has given it a greater goodly presence given the faiths of the city) but it is very much Lawful Neutral. The tolerance has been watered down on the server a bit as well given the banned faiths, again a product of server lore (and the actions of said faiths). The Dukes are played as being savvy, and willing to make money from anyone, but without committing outright evil acts themselves to do so, or endanger the city.

Roaringshore: CE. Anything goes in Roaringshore, but certain groups are certainly not welcome (Holy orders, known goodly factions, etc, are going to get a rough time). The Pirates will not be fond of being bullied on their home turf, but would be keen to have trade from various evil factions. It is an evil settlement, basically, ruled by evil NPCs.

Soubar: CN. We go for a wild west feel with this place. No laws, the NPCs (such as they are) really want to make money. They do not care much for the ethics of how its done although server history has made them leery of rocking the boat too much with outsiders, and of being subjugated. If anything it might lean slightly towards evil in the same way BG leans sightly towards good. But the idea is anyone and everyone can RP here, and anyone and everyone should have their guard up.

Corm Orp: TN, and its got that lovely halfling temple on the rise, lovely place. Whats that? Darkhold's nearby and there is a treaty of defensive cooperation?

Beregost: LN terms of the Amnians but the settlement has perhaps a slight lean towards good (still neutral) given the Lathanderite temple and PC guild. That said, Amnian law prevails, so there is freedom of faith and provided the laws are not broken, no groups are banned.


Nashkel: LN, very strictly. This is due to the Amnian NPCs and the large influence of the House of the Guardian. Again Amnian law prevails.

Friendly Arm Inn: TN. An enforced truce, given Bentley's ideal of a neutral meeting spot to resolve disputes. Obey Bentley's no trouble rule and it does not matter who you are.

Uruk Lurra: CE. ORCS ONLY. Okay half orcs. Be careful if you are anyone else.

Summary: Of 7 settlements, 6 are neutral, 2 evil. 5 are open to anyone, 1 is hard to visit for good aligned, 1 is pretty much orcs only, and one (the largest) is hard to visit for certain evil factions and faiths. Two of the neutrals could be said to be more favourable to good than evil, but only mildly in both cases.


PC Guild/NPC Settlement Fusion
Darkhold: LE. The garrison is an NPC garrison that is LE. Clearly the zhentarim PCs have much sway here however.

Doron Amar: CG/CN. This is a settlement largely PC led so policy is set by PCs. We envisage it as broadly elven in outlook in so far as we are asked to RP the NPCs. That would place it broadly CG, but CN leaning given its origins.

Darasha: CG/CN. The NPC council (which defers to the PCs on foreign policy) is composed of a TN, a CN, and NG NPC. Which about sums up the village.

Kraak Helzak: LG? Again, its PC led. I suspect its a LN leaning and isolationist LG. Or a LG leaning and isolationist LN. Ask them! But when asked to play the King, thats how I play it

Summary: 3 on the border of good and neutral; one evil but very lawful, so perhaps not suitable for all evil doers.


"Off Map" Settlements and Factions
The Amnian Government: NE. This government intervenes fairly regularly in the north, particularly if there is a threat (This is a shift fron canon lore due to Amn Gate war). When you are dealing with the local garrison in Beregost, its LN. When the cowled wizards teleport in with a bunch of Legionaries and special orders from the Council of Six, its pretty much gloves off time. While Amn, the country, has a vast swathe of people in it of varying alignments, we do consider Amn overall to be a "light" NE, and there plenty of fairly rotten people within the faction who are open to all sorts of scheming. We have, in a shift from canon, made them more willing to work with evil factions rather than treat them as competitors.

The Lords Alliance: LG, although slanted towards LN. To some cities its a defensive alliance against expansion by Amn and the Zhentarim; to others the opposition is much more fervent.

Elturel: LG, but a helmite LG, as its ruled by a Helmite Paladin. Its likely the only "Good" government that PCs will interact with.

Summary: 1 evil, 2 good, although they are somewhat one in the same.


I am posting the above so people see how the team view these settlements. The bias on the server is probably quite heavily towards lawful, rather than good per se! But they are sometimes one in the same.

I wanted to go through Steve's examples as they are good questions and the answers might help show whats possible and whats not

– Can a PC work to be honored by the High Captains of Roaringshore for exceptional piracy?

I this has happened twice in the past year and a half, and indeed half way through the process a third time. All in mid 2014. Alas Roaringshore after some activity fell quiet again. I did have a group of PCs honoured for exceptional piracy. And indeed, there are PCs in existence today who have the ear of one or more of the High Captains

But I can tell you the number of requests we have had (until very recently) to interact with the High Captains since late 2014. Zero.

I welcome more!

– Can a PC wrestle with his moral abnormalities yet maintain his dominance and strength of purpose so that others are lead by his/her example?

This sounds like a player to player thing, in which case I'd say its possible.

– Can a band of brigands rob and steal from a Baldarian caravan, and bring that booty back to the NPC Leader and receive rewards, titles, slaves, accolades within the evil power structure?

I do believe this has happened a couple of times in the past year. Its not common though, and the receipt of rewards, titles, slaves etc within the evil power structure does not happen. There is not a singular evil power structure, however.

– Can a Zhent gain accolades and power without being a member of the Zhentarim Player Guild?

No. The Zhentarim PC guilds IC duty is to manage agents on this region of theSword Coast, thus interaction goes through the guild.

Conversely, are there any consistent, active Evil NPC factions that Players can RP within, in the similar vein that we RP "within" the Laws of Baldur's Gate and the whims of the Four Dukes?

Currently, the public ones would be:
- Amn (the central government)
- The High Captains
- The Black Orcs of Uruk Lurra

There have been more clandestine ones in the past.

The truth is, and its unfortunate, but the majority of requests we get for interaction that can be labelled "evil" (Not ALL, but a large number) are often by single PCs, are requesting a sweeping effect, and are often "PVP" focused.

[Rhifox]

Isn't Roaring Shore kind of an evil city?

It is, but it's out of the way and largely unused. A more appropriate city to make evil I think would be one of the ones on the Trade Way, that people regularly pass through and utilize.

That, or develop Roaringshore more to give it more of a presence. Things like putting good merchants there, having it be a city people have to pass through to get to desirable dungeons and other locations, and incorporating more factions there than 'just pirates'. In my opinion the ideal city is 'governed by evil' not 'only evil'. The ideal location has both baddies and goodies under its domain, so both groups have a reason to populate it.

I'd certainly like to see Roaringshore be used more though, IMO it's the best-looking of BG's cities.

[ragnarok1983]

Well, darn. Looks like is evil folks will have to be agents of of change and (among PCs) underdogs.

Challenge accepted.

Step one: Win hearts and minds.
Step two: Destroy said hearts and/or minds. (Need details here)
Step three: Profit!

Look at that! I have like... 66% of the problem figured out.

[Steve]

Thank you for the information, Theophanies. Probably a lot I could comment on, but I'd like to focus here:

The truth is, and its unfortunate, but the majority of requests we get for interaction that can be labelled "evil" (Not ALL, but a large number) are often by single PCs, are requesting a sweeping effect, and are often "PVP" focused.

From this, I interpret:

a) evil-minded PCs should be thinking—which is not abnormal in and of itself—to be creating "factions," either loose or tight, that might further a shared agenda.
b) subtle effects should be considered, by Players, a valuable "deed" done. There is a saying: "A crumb is also bread."
c) Don't get too PvP focused when it comes to Evil-minded RP. The DMs don't support it, and be creative to see having an effect without "winning" via mechanics—something I mentioned earlier, and truly, truly, support.

[NegInfinity]

Heck no. Evil isn't supposed to be man-for-man balanced with good.

The setting is not good aligned and evil is more powerful than good, inherently.

If you want "lore-correct" alignment, then majority would probably be neutrals.

It isn't as likely that they will unite in the face of good

They absolutely can do that. Lawful evil fits that perfectly, and even chaotic evil is capable of amassing horde under a strong chieftain.

[Akroma666]

Leave items off the table or start another thread. It has 0 to do with alignment.

Well that's a flat lie..
What does all evil aspire to do? Have power.. how is power obtained? By skill, items, and determination. You know what doesn't help.. when the next whistling bard puts his Longsword +4 with +1d6 sonic damage through your chest while watching your head explode as he hums because hes stopped and orc raid and has the blinged out necklace of awesome to match his shiny ring of cool guy and slippers of DM events.
I beg to differ, items are alignment weighted.

[NegInfinity]

What does all evil aspire to do?

Evil does not aspire to do anything. Good ALSO does not aspire to anything by default.

Aspirations are character specific. Class-specific, maybe. Not alignment-specific. Alignment does not define your character and your character's aspirations.

The difference between good is pretty much that "Good" means "Altruism" and "Evil" means "Egoism". Good cares about others, while Evil does not. And that's pretty much it.
----

You can absolutely have evil gate guard with zero aspirations and zero desire for power.

----

Frankly those kinds of post sometimes make me think that there should be "Evil 101" thread or something. Because I read plenty of very strange ideas. Like "Good guys should win", "You play evil when you want to play jerks, I don't want to be a jerk, so I won't play evil", etc.

Where the heck are people getting all those ideas...

And what's up with attempts to "adjust" "balance of power" through FORUMS? Forums don't exist in the world. If you want to make some difference, roll character and play it. Make a guild, request events and stuff.

[Steve]

The difference between good is pretty much that "Good" means "Altruism" and "Evil" means "Egoism". Good cares about others, while Evil does not. And that's pretty much it.

Negs, you really should try discussing issues without offering subjective absolutes, since they can often be, for lack of better words, wrong.

For example:

Lawful evil characters value the allegiances that they have with their cause, government, religion, or other organization. They also value those individuals that they call allies. Betraying a friend is just as much a transgression for the lawful evil as it is for the lawful good.

Anyway, as I said to Akroma privately: the "balance of power" is not going to be solved if the determinate is Epic Items, or power to "get balanced" by winning at PvP (and forcing that win to stick). No DM is going to support that, and no Player wants to have a "loss" forced upon them.

[ragnarok1983]

What does all evil aspire to do?

Evil does not aspire to do anything. Good ALSO does not aspire to anything by default.

Aspirations are character specific. Class-specific, maybe. Not alignment-specific. Alignment does not define your character and your character's aspirations.

The difference between good is pretty much that "Good" means "Altruism" and "Evil" means "Egoism". Good cares about others, while Evil does not. And that's pretty much it.
----

You can absolutely have evil gate guard with zero aspirations and zero desire for power...

----

Frankly those kinds of post sometimes make me think that there should be "Evil 101" thread or something. Because I read plenty of very strange ideas. Like "Good guys should win", "You play evil when you want to play jerks, I don't want to be a jerk, so I won't play evil", etc.

Where the heck are people getting all those ideas...

And what's up with attempts to "adjust" "balance of power" through FORUMS? Forums don't exist in the world. If you want to make some difference, roll character and play it. Make a guild, request events and stuff.

But then, of course, there are those of us who do aspire to gain power...

[Akroma666]

What does all evil aspire to do?

Evil does not aspire to do anything. Good ALSO does not aspire to anything by default.

Aspirations are character specific. Class-specific, maybe. Not alignment-specific. Alignment does not define your character and your character's aspirations.

The difference between good is pretty much that "Good" means "Altruism" and "Evil" means "Egoism". Good cares about others, while Evil does not. And that's pretty much it.
----

You can absolutely have evil gate guard with zero aspirations and zero desire for power.

----

Frankly those kinds of post sometimes make me think that there should be "Evil 101" thread or something. Because I read plenty of very strange ideas. Like "Good guys should win", "You play evil when you want to play jerks, I don't want to be a jerk, so I won't play evil", etc.

Where the heck are people getting all those ideas...

Neg, I'm beginning to think you like to argue with everyone just for the sake of arguing. I am also willing to bet my small amassed (worthless) fortune of gold that you probably have the items to back up your evil intentions against said random traveling happy go lucky minstrel should he jump you. I however, along with many others.. do not.

[NegInfinity]

Neg, I'm beginning to think...

You wanted an opinion, you got one.

I am also willing to bet my small amassed (worthless) fortune of gold that you probably have the items to back up your evil intentions against said random traveling happy go lucky minstrel should he jump you.

Are you serious?

Do you really, really, really think that items matter this much?

Feel free to jump any of my characters you can bump into. As long as you have RP reason for that, and follow the rules, I'll interact with you.