The Balance of Power

[DM Pun Pun]

That's your opinion and not a fact!
Some people just like to watch the world burn.

Which ironically makes other evil PCs oppose that character. Hence one of the issues as to why Evil PCs have a hard time collaborating like non-evil factions.

[Steve]

There are some excellent evil characters running around this server currently. Some are even causing more chaos than they probably even realize now, and they are not characters that I have ever seen in a PvP conflict. But they are doing some damage that will eventually cause others adversity. But if you look abck at the samples of great villains on this server, this kind of stuff is why they are regarded as such.

I wanted to say, as a response to this, that it would probably be beneficial to the Player(s) to inform them—either via OOC or some generate IC means—that they are "making a difference," and that it is being recognized.

Causing Law & Order is often seen/heard in many forms—from in-game changes to Forum rumor threads and between-Character RP. But I think there is a dearth of reference(s) to when and how evil-aligned PCs are functioning, as is stated above: doing damage and causing adversity.

Not all of the server's "greatest villains" are spoken of in bardic song or have monuments in their honor, to their actions. Or maybe I'm wrong on this and I just don't know where to find it?

It's not like there is some statue of Eliphas Valkarian in Darkhold, from which a PC—and thus a Player—can learn from, aspire to. lol. I had to laugh writing that....

Is it strange or breaking some "fourth wall" for DMs to give a shout out to PCs of the Evil Kind, that are making headway? Is it strange or just implausible that PCs find ways to, in-character, celebrate the Evil that has paved a way forward?

Maybe that is also an issue yet-to-be-discussed in this thread: how we as Players and DMs fail to honor and celebrate the past, what has gone on before us, and how quickly we forget or identify a sense of failure, because we all have a short-sighted vision on Server history?!?

[NegInfinity]

played Fenrir for not even a 1/4 the play time and already got an epic long sword from a DM event.

You got a usable weapon in a DM event and after that you complain that getting items is hard?
And post this kind of stuff too?:

I am also willing to bet my small amassed (worthless) fortune of gold that you probably have the items to back up your evil intentions against said random traveling happy go lucky minstrel

Dude, it sounds like a greed issue to me.

Every single item I own was looted, bought or traded. The only weapon I ever got in event was +2 short sword +1 frost damage, which was either sold or traded away.

[Akroma666]

played Fenrir for not even a 1/4 the play time and already got an epic long sword from a DM event.

You got a usable weapon in a DM event and after that you complain that getting items is hard?
And post this kind of stuff too?:

I am also willing to bet my small amassed (worthless) fortune of gold that you probably have the items to back up your evil intentions against said random traveling happy go lucky minstrel

Dude, it sounds like a greed issue to me.

Every single item I own was looted, bought or traded. The only weapon I ever got in event was +2 short sword +1 frost damage, which was either sold or traded away.

If you are going to troll my posts rather than offer constructive comments to the topic, please don't bother responding.

[NegInfinity]

If you are going to troll my posts rather than offer constructive comments to the topic, please don't bother responding.

I post what I think. People "troll" to intentionally enrage someone.
If you don't like people responding to your posts, please don't bother posting on forums.

[Tsidkenu]

The funniest thing about all this is that, with the new crafting system that's in the works, one could get a weapon enchanter to simply make a weapon with the same stats as an Epic Bloodletter, although not without the associated cost. I should have posted that on page one of this thread and saved everyone the headache.

[DM Ditto]

There are some excellent evil characters running around this server currently. Some are even causing more chaos than they probably even realize now, and they are not characters that I have ever seen in a PvP conflict. But they are doing some damage that will eventually cause others adversity. But if you look abck at the samples of great villains on this server, this kind of stuff is why they are regarded as such.

I wanted to say, as a response to this, that it would probably be beneficial to the Player(s) to inform them—either via OOC or some generate IC means—that they are "making a difference," and that it is being recognized.

That is one of the functions of the DM threads in the Elfsong Tavern subforum.

Causing Law & Order is often seen/heard in many forms—from in-game changes to Forum rumor threads and between-Character RP. But I think there is a dearth of reference(s) to when and how evil-aligned PCs are functioning, as is stated above: doing damage and causing adversity.

Not all of the server's "greatest villains" are spoken of in bardic song or have monuments in their honor, to their actions. Or maybe I'm wrong on this and I just don't know where to find it?

It's not like there is some statue of Eliphas Valkarian in Darkhold, from which a PC—and thus a Player—can learn from, aspire to. lol. I had to laugh writing that....

If there was a great villain who had manipulated and devastated a region long enough to be memorable, the last thing a bard would want to do in that region would be to commemorate the villain's deeds in a positive light. Where there's a will, there's a way, but it is rare for an NPC bard to have a death wish, or risk denying himself a meal and a warm bed for the night.

Not every hero will be celebrated, and not every villain will be idolized. Some will, but that is more up to the initiative of players than what a DM can do.

Is it strange or breaking some "fourth wall" for DMs to give a shout out to PCs of the Evil Kind, that are making headway? Is it strange or just implausible that PCs find ways to, in-character, celebrate the Evil that has paved a way forward?

Maybe that is also an issue yet-to-be-discussed in this thread: how we as Players and DMs fail to honor and celebrate the past, what has gone on before us, and how quickly we forget or identify a sense of failure, because we all have a short-sighted vision on Server history?!?

I do not see a reason why PCs cannot ICly commemorate the villains, as long as they accept the IC consequences that would come of it, good or bad. Telling tales of past server characters and deeds would allow newer players to have a grasp of server history.

Frankly, it is a territory better handled with players than with DMs. If you wish to share tales about a villain or a great deed done, then have your character speak about it and honor that villain, and maybe even submit a request to make a statue. It is a more reliable way to give recognition than to hope that a DM will take the initiative to do so.

[Blackman D]

i can see it now, a statue of miranda in the palace district

"Thank you for blowing this up and allowing us to remodel! Been wanting to do it for years"

[Akroma666]

The funniest thing about all this is that, with the new crafting system that's in the works, one could get a weapon enchanter to simply make a weapon with the same stats as an Epic Bloodletter, although not without the associated cost. I should have posted that on page one of this thread and saved everyone the headache.

We the simpltons don't know anything about it. Care to share?

[NegInfinity]

The funniest thing about all this is that, with the new crafting system that's in the works, one could get a weapon enchanter to simply make a weapon with the same stats as an Epic Bloodletter, although not without the associated cost. I should have posted that on page one of this thread and saved everyone the headache.

We the simpltons don't know anything about it. Care to share?

http://bgtscc.net/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=51550

[ragnarok1983]

The funniest thing about all this is that, with the new crafting system that's in the works, one could get a weapon enchanter to simply make a weapon with the same stats as an Epic Bloodletter, although not without the associated cost. I should have posted that on page one of this thread and saved everyone the headache.

I am absolutely sure it's getting worked one... but I remember when we started talking about crafting in.... 2010? Yeah, 2010 I think. I am... wary of getting hopes too high or believing I would be able to afford the gold cost when it eventually is put in.

/derail

[Thorsson]

...or believing I would be able to afford the gold cost when it eventually is put in.

Aye there's the rub. But items should be the subject of another thread. There are plenty of non-Evil characters who don't have anything in the way of Epic loot. It's about falling in with what the DMs want to DM, when they want to DM. You want the phat lewt you have to go with that. Nothing to do with being Evil per se.

[Steve]

i can see it now, a statue of miranda in the palace district

"Thank you for blowing this up and allowing us to remodel! Been wanting to do it for years"

Nice way to trivialize, mate. Since your Shroud of Snarkiness seems to also grant a Skill Modifier of -4 Concentration, let me try and clarify my earlier point.

I wanted to say, as a response to this, that it would probably be beneficial to the Player(s) to inform them—either via OOC or some generate IC means—that they are "making a difference," and that it is being recognized.

That is one of the functions of the DM threads in the Elfsong Tavern subforum.

Okay, let's do a Forum search in the Elfsong Tavern for Miranda. To quote Bernie Sanders: "...der ain't none!"

Let's do a Forum Search under Dungeon Master's Realm. Guess what? Only OOC-list oriented or "buddy" references.

The topic of this thread is "Balance of Power. Is it appropriate to talk about the balance of power between DMs and Players? Maybe not fully on-topic, but pertinent, nonetheless. Let me start by using this as an example:

If there was a great villain who had manipulated and devastated a region long enough to be memorable, the last thing a bard would want to do in that region would be to commemorate the villain's deeds in a positive light. Where there's a will, there's a way, but it is rare for an NPC bard to have a death wish, or risk denying himself a meal and a warm bed for the night.

Not every hero will be celebrated, and not every villain will be idolized. Some will, but that is more up to the initiative of players than what a DM can do.

What is the role of the DM, in the game of D&D? In my humble opinion, it is to reflect the World, the game environment, for the Player. The DM controls the color of the grass to the will of the Gods. Another way to say it is, especially on BGTSCC: the DMs have the power to tell the Player how much power the Player Character has. What the DMs tell the Player is determined by the actions that the Player manifests in the Game World the DMs control.

But any way you look at this, the Dungeon Master has more control, more power, more abilities, more rights for determination.

So to tie it back into the last quote from Ditto above: where is the Region where the great villian took control and governed the lands and subjected it to Her form of civilization, and the bards write and perform songs to praise Her name, because... there are guards in the corner of every tavern and the bardess wishes to gain favor—and a few coin—via praise?

Are you telling me that Darkhold has no bards there for officer entertainment? No soldier with a poetic soul that writes spirited missives to the old Darklord, who through actions and deeds, has given all ranks in the Zhentarim a will to succeed, empowered desire for MORE POWER?!?!

Or, in contrast: where is the Bard that write the metaphoric poem that both details the "truth" of the great villians reign and criticizes the evil power that sits upon the throne?

But wait...

I do not see a reason why PCs cannot ICly commemorate the villains, as long as they accept the IC consequences that would come of it, good or bad. Telling tales of past server characters and deeds would allow newer players to have a grasp of server history.

Frankly, it is a territory better handled with players than with DMs.

Do you not see because of limited vision? Above is the unfortunate, typical response from the DM Team: this is a Player issue.

How many times do Players need to say this: those that play Evil-aligned PCs feel hampered. They feel ignored. They perceive a sandbox that favors the good-aligned PCs, Guild and Factions. They are NOT getting good direction, necessary support and...the most important, being offered direct possibilities by the DM Team, to take up and run with. Okay, the above is a minor generalization about "how all players of evil PCs feel"...because some like BMD seem rather content with themselves.

Put another way: Players of evil PCs want more possibilities. As the DMs are the embodiment of the World those PCs exist in, then what does it take to get the DMs to provide more avenues for the Players to work within?

I believe the DM Team wants to help. Even in this thread, from Theophanies and Dialectic and Pun Pun, there is comment on the issue, and by that alone, there is some perceivable consideration being done by the Team (and I can only hope and assume more being done behind the Veil).

To reiterate once again: the Game World, the Sword Coast, the Baldur's Gate region—what the DMs control and embody in the context of the game D&D—does not currently have much in terms of reflection of the importance of Evil, nor does it in any way celebrate it nor guide it to further development.

Another way to say it is: Players and their PCs are pretty much left on their own. As Ditto said: do not "...hope that a DM will take the initiative to do so." Fair enough. How about some help then? And no, submitting Player Requests is not the way. We're asking for the DM Team to generate more. And then, the onus is on the Players of the Evil PCs to pick it up, and make something of it.

Cheers.

[thids]

I'm not so sure that the reason for the lack of reputation "great villains" receive in game is the neglect from the DM team. It may very well be that there simply are no villains worth of reputation, or that they simply weren't exposed.

I would really like to hear of some villains in the last 3 years, with specific deeds of what they DID which made them (in)famous. And I don't mean the deeds which players pin to their own characters, I mean true villains who achieved proper infamy. I don't think anyone would get very far in their counting. I can think of very few.

Naturally that is likely tied to the opportunities evil PC's had on the server during these three years, which (from my experience) weren't many.


But if we turn the tables around, do people truly remember great heroes when they stop playing? Does the persistent world we RP in remember them?

[DM Galatea]

In short during that plot, if your evil character tried to destroy BG instead of learning the secrets of the powerful teleports the General used, gain more information about the Netheresse, try to learn about the artifacts the undead were seeking and acquiring them, etc, then you just missed opportunities. Simple as that.

That's your opinion and not a fact!
Some people just like to watch the world burn.

OPINION FOLLOWS:

That is fine. Just don't expect to succeed in a game ending state on a permanent world with over a hundred and twenty active players. I cannot speak for other ADMs or DMs, but I operate on the clause of proportionate rationality. I will sum it up as follows:

An action which results in a great deviation from the status quo as it currently exists must be supported by a proportionate amount of planning and motivation.

What this means is that you can, in fact, plan to do great evil or great good deeds. I consider both the same thing for the purposes of this explanation. However, if your character goes in haphazard or just for the lulz, you're probably going to fail. Throw in a bit more planning and scale down your ambitions a little and you may actually succeed, though not without some duress.

I am generally of the opinion that players should be allowed to try apocalyptically stupid things, with the notion that you are probably risking your character to do it. Other DMs don't always agree with me on this and I understand their reasoning - more often than than not, the consequences of a PC getting their arse kicked go out of character.

I personally like ridiculous requests. I also like making people fail. Terribly. In a "you should have known better" situation. Similarly, I love it when a crazy plan that is actually well planned can go well.

So how can you, as players, help this situation?

1. Treat DMs with respect and care. We are volunteers, not jobsworths.

2. Treat each other with respect and care. Every bit of drama between two players is more work for DMs. HDMs in particular are perpetual admins, endlessly dealing with bits of in and out of character drama.

3. Don't metagame. It's so obvious and so easy to spot. Don't even bother with it. I don't know why players think they can get away with it. There are over a hundred players on this server, all talking to us on a daily basis. Do you think we won't notice?

4. Don't form OOC cliques. See point 3. Nothing has ever come from cliques of OOC players railing against other cliques.

5. Learn how to win and lose gracefully.

Note, I reiterate. There seems to be a perception that the DMs simply favour 'good' sided initiatives. I do not agree. If you were to look at the player request forums, the reaction to world changing cataclysmic 'good' initiatives is the same as 'evil' initiatives.

I am still a relatively new addition to the staff, but so far we have had to reject requests ranging from ultra-snowflake NPC interactions through to killing archdevils in the Hells from 'good' players. However, for whatever reason, we get a lot of moderate, relatively well balanced and modestly iterative 'good' initiatives and very few evil ones.

You would be surprised how much scope there is for well balanced evil amongst the DM staff. At present, I (as a career 'good' character player) am gleefully looking forward to introducing my lawful evil supporting antagonist as part of the next stage in the metaplot. A character that I have specifically written to work with evil players.

No, you probably won't be able to plant a one kiloton thermo-magical device in the centre of Baldurs Gate and claim responsibility for it by the means of simultaneous sendings while standing in front of an altar of Bane firing crossbows into the air.

However, corrupting peasants, starting a cult of personality, beginning a smuggling ring, bribing officials to turn a blind eye, or becoming a serial killer that works in secret in the Docks? All possible. Guild infiltration? That's a bit harder, but entirely supported and has been so by the DMs in the past. Risk there is of course OOC issues, but people should be mature enough to allow it to happen.

Evil has plenty of opportunities. Just develop them and see where you go.