The Balance of Power

DM Dialectic · Unread post by **DM Dialectic** » Thu May 12, 2016 8:02 pm

Young Werther wrote:
DM Pun Pun wrote:The Virtuous Soil was an attempt as such, but no one wanted to side with them.
A character of mine supported them but didn't directly side with them. It was really fun and I wish I could have had an appropriate character to directly help something like that. My character took the CN route in the end after indirectly being responsible for the death of a Flaming Fist officer. She was given a bit of IC flack for helping them and she was only paid 2k per a job so she realized her time was better off not aiding them. But it still was really cool. It made me wish I played a proper evil character and could follow the plots better.

If someone's PC would still be interested in insurgency or revolutionary conspiracy type RP in Baldur's Gate that missed the opportunity last year with the Virtuous Soil, please send in a player request with what you might be thinking for us to review!

DM Golem · Unread post by **DM Golem** » Thu May 12, 2016 8:25 pm

Daamien wrote:I was going to pipe up, then I saw Kagger's post.

*slow clap*

That, folks, is how you win an argument.

Is it though?

Kagger's was a PVP related request. For various reasons that is not going through, such RP is not to everyone's taste and we aren't in the business of forcing people into RP they won't enjoy.

Yet, in the quoted RP, the High Captain is doing just what is being asked in this thread: offering an event to evil players to do something

DM Golem wrote:"I do actually have a favour to ask you. If you are interested. There is coin to be had, and of course my gratitude."

Ambrosio offers a cold smile. "If...you have any knives of your own to call on at all."

So....Kagger's request is refused but an event offered instead, directed at him and evil RP, a DM initiative to bring RP to evil groups AND respecting the status Kagger has earned in Roaringshore.

Which is the kind of event that I'm understanding from this thread is exactly what is wanted?

Alas, he's not taken me up on it. I'm less inclined to run it, now.

Face · Unread post by **Face** » Thu May 12, 2016 9:01 pm

DM Golem wrote:
Daamien wrote:I was going to pipe up, then I saw Kagger's post.

*slow clap*

That, folks, is how you win an argument.
Is it though?

Kagger's was a PVP related request. For various reasons that is not going through, such RP is not to everyone's taste and we aren't in the business of forcing people into RP they won't enjoy.

Yet, in the quoted RP, the High Captain is doing just what is being asked in this thread: offering an event to evil players to do something

DM Golem wrote:"I do actually have a favour to ask you. If you are interested. There is coin to be had, and of course my gratitude."

Ambrosio offers a cold smile. "If...you have any knives of your own to call on at all."
So....Kagger's request is refused but an event offered instead, directed at him and evil RP, a DM initiative to bring RP to evil groups AND respecting the status Kagger has earned in Roaringshore.

Which is the kind of event that I'm understanding from this thread is exactly what is wanted?

Alas, he's not taken me up on it. I'm less inclined to run it, now.

The fact that players can say no i dont want to do this before it even started is a bit meh in my opinion.
It makes me salty when rp is waved away like this.
Why not do it and offer an rp out...So no actualy pvp has to go down at all.
And dont even get me started about the follow up rp this sort of thing could have.

Kagger911 · Unread post by **Kagger911** » Thu May 12, 2016 9:51 pm

Hidden: show

No, the event is a way to sweep my actions under the rug with something no one will see. I want to have fun instead of being "inclined" to do different things. It's annoying because I want to trust the Dm team with things the Evil characters want. It's just that it's very aligned to the goodies.

I bet nobody remembers the battle of Beregost we had for the Drow? Yes, it was a Pvp event. No not everyone enjoyed it because their egos got shattered, but that fact is that even after we ended up doing the whole attack. It was paused, and then we lost conveniently. Daggo would've taken out Mayor De Oca. No, we ended up getting hung.

Kagger911 · Unread post by **Kagger911** » Thu May 12, 2016 9:53 pm

Hidden: show

Not even that, I wanted some npc pirates to attack the cruise. Look at the prices. Every Pirate in Roaringshores would be going after that but no. Not even a tiny bit of conflict from another chacter saying "Hey, I know what you did last summer."

NegInfinity · Unread post by **NegInfinity** » Thu May 12, 2016 11:34 pm

Akroma666 wrote: Also, do I need to join a guild to get DM attention?

No, submit the request, DMs will respond. Even if you're not in a guild.

Hidennka · Unread post by **Hidennka** » Fri May 13, 2016 12:13 am

Kagger911 wrote:No, the event is a way to sweep my actions under the rug with something no one will see. I want to have fun instead of being "inclined" to do different things. It's annoying because I want to trust the Dm team with things the Evil characters want. It's just that it's very aligned to the goodies.

I bet nobody remembers the battle of Beregost we had for the Drow? Yes, it was a Pvp event. No not everyone enjoyed it because their egos got shattered, but that fact is that even after we ended up doing the whole attack. It was paused, and then we lost conveniently. Daggo would've taken out Mayor De Oca. No, we ended up getting hung.

I'm sorry... but I wouldn't classify running into the middle of the city and killing those RPing an 'event' - especially without DM involvement (which came in the aftermath because of a complete disregard for NPCs). People didn't enjoy the complete steamroll of said 'event' because those who engaged in PvP were on different toons at the start of conflict and switched to more powerful 'allies' to storm the prison. It had nothing to do with ego and everything to do with being stupid enough to attack the barracks on a whim, which, at the time, was filled to capacity with visiting Amnian soldiers. Damn right you're going to get your asses hung if it fails. Action = consequence.

In that instance, it had nothing to be with good prevailing. It had everything to do with lacking common sense on the side of evil. If anyone attacked the city, regardless of alignment, rest assured they'd get the same treatment. With how corrupt Beregost was at the time, and even now continues to be, I'm quite certain someone could have thrown some coin at the Sheriff and had the body released to them, but... no. It always has to be big, and flashy and full of recognition; even if the recognition isn't given in the most flattering light. There is a time and place for public displays and examples (Triel restoration efforts, anyone?) but it's something to, in my opinion, to be build up to. Intrigue isn't everyone's game, that's fair enough, but the best evil players I've witnessed on the server (thids, whistler, privateer among them) used their mechanical might sparingly and when it happened, ho boy. It was scary. It was backed by RP. It wasn't just another repeat of "Oh, there's X beating down Y again." If I'm reading correctly, the requests you've made constantly are those that hinge solely on publicly attacking one person or another.

Sabel Faeria, who used to lead the Dead Crows, was a character who did it right. Every time. The Red Sorceress walked that line between being publicly known and working from the shadows. When her deeds became more public, she only ever traveled on the trade way with a PC body guard and hid from plain sight. She'd let you know she was there, but never force a confrontation. You were left wondering why, and when she would make her move.

Snarfy · Unread post by **Snarfy** » Fri May 13, 2016 12:38 am

Kagger911 wrote:Not even that, I wanted some npc pirates to attack the cruise. Look at the prices. Every Pirate in Roaringshores would be going after that but no. Not even a tiny bit of conflict from another chacter saying "Hey, I know what you did last summer."

Are you entirely sure every pirate in Roaringshore would be going after that? That's a bold statement coming from a player who doesn't speak for the NPC Pirates in question... especially when one tells your character, quite specifically:

"Alas, the vessel is moored on the Chionthar, and I am a noble privateer of Baldur's Gate, even if much maligned. I could never violate the Duke's sovereignty."

Crashing another characters shindig is a legitimate idea. You want to do it? Put in some work, hire a bunch of ne're do wells, come up with a plan, and do it yourself. Trying to recruit the DM's to throw a bunch of party-crashing NPC's at a player led initiative is, quite frankly, the epitome of laziness.

(the rest of my rant isn't necessarily directed at you Kagger)

This is going to sound harsh, but I'm pretty much at the end of my rope when it comes to the server, so screw it: some of the sentiment in this thread is just pathetic. For real.

The thread pretty much lost me at: "Evil is neglected because DM's don't do anything for our evil toons or give us epic gearz for our ultimate carnage goalz."

Dear bad guys:

I'll wager that the reason most evil PC's aren't given the time of day is because the majority of those "evil" PC's act like FAI-goonsquad rofl-stomp nit-wits who are too damn lazy to take a step back, use their brains, and display a modicum of calculation, subtlety, or consideration in their RP or OOC approach. The whole 'acting like schoolyard bullies' record is stuck on repeat here. Well, guess what? It's old, it's tired, and no-one enjoys it but the stupid-evil characters(or is it players?) trying to instigate it.

Maybe you "bad guys" should try putting in a little more thought and effort into your dastardly schemes, and less crapping on the DM's for not giving you free passes to act like mindless thugs. Food for thought, if you can manage to digest it.

*drops the mic... off a cliff*

Maecius · Unread post by **Maecius** » Fri May 13, 2016 1:08 am

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Maecius · Unread post by **Maecius** » Sat May 14, 2016 3:22 pm

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Lockonnow · Unread post by **Lockonnow** » Sat May 14, 2016 4:25 pm

there many way to play evil most is to get power

Akroma666 · Unread post by **Akroma666** » Sat May 14, 2016 5:40 pm

Lockonnow wrote:there many way to play evil most is to get power

Poor SLJ..

I just wanted to say, that in the past 3 or 4 days since I have started this post, the DM staff has been working with me to create more evil centered events. Hopefully with this, we can create more of a presence of evil or chaos that people can hop on board with, or combat. I am VERY impressed with the response I've gotten from the DM staff and the players.

If any of you evil PCs out there feel neglected and want to join in on some of the events I am working on, please shoot me a PM with your character name and play times. I can forward it along to the DM I am working with and see if we can work something out.

I think this is a great start to creating some love for Evil, but I still do feel the staff needs to remember that Evil exists and wants to get some love and support too. DM's when you log in and what to create a random unscripted event, just think of maybe offering it to a couple random Evil PCs and what they might endever to do in a situation. That's I am asking.

ctothep · Unread post by **ctothep** » Sat May 14, 2016 6:12 pm

oops should be a PM

Steve · Unread post by **Steve** » Sat May 14, 2016 6:28 pm

I asked Maecius to re-open this thread so I could clear some things up.

First, a thank you to Dialectic for the response and being candid. But there were some things you wrote that did not make sense to me, or seemed like misinterpretations—something to clear up.

DM Dialectic wrote:Correct me if I am wrong, but your tone above implied to me that you had not seen DM recognition in our world before of "making a difference" in regards to evil RP, so I was pointing out a recent example where we had.

I see recognition in minor and major ways via the DM Rumor thread. No, I did not know that actual map changes were made in regard to an Event for the Zhentarim Guild. That is cool, and this is how the Server keeps or appears to be living.

But my comment—or tone, as you say—was related to DM Pun Pun saying some evil PCs are causing more chaos than they or the Player of said PC, knows. That is all well and good, but like I said, it implies that Players of Evil PCs can exist in a vacuum, when it comes to their RP, and that isn't good. Which is why I gave examples where DM(s) could give a direct "message" to the PC—or the Player—that their RP is having an effect.

I hope you and the rest of the DM Team realize how incredibly effective that can be, for Player moral (yep, I said it). And what I am suggesting for Evils is also pertinent to goods, but alas, evils really see/hear less of it. Of that I am certain.

DM Dialiect wrote:We are working on some things to try to expand social opportunity for evil PCs (and chaotic PCs as well hopefully), some of which have already started, but we plan for more to follow.

I rarely use this word, but: awesome! Thank you in advance. I hope that I receive some invitation to be a part of it.

DM Dialectic wrote:Please feel free to fault my reading comprehension, but I read both of these as implicitly saying that the DM team does not (as in never) communicate to evil PCs when they are "making a difference" and that we do not "somehow encourage those evil PCs, through some means?...-a vision... from deity...-special rumor." Thinking that was your implied meaning, it is rather reasonable to then offer specific counter-examples in the good-faith interest of deriving truth in the discussion. This is not excuse making, it is just truth-oriented conversation in an internet forum context, something that I am guessing that we can mutually agree is a mutual value to try to hold in threads such as this. If this was not your intent, then I recommend perhaps making it clearer next time that you are not saying "never" but instead maybe "not enough" when pointing out what you believe to be DMing or otherwise community deficiencies. I say this also noting that you had multiple DMs emphasize with your points and say "we need to do better" while pointing out that some of your perceived implicit generalizations were inaccurate with examples.

I did not say "never." So we can clear that up. If my tone implied I said "never," then I apologize.

Again, I will say: a counter-example for one Guild, or one Player, is not a situation where no deficiency exists. I realize and stated myself that I witnessed many DMs in this thread being forthcoming and promoting healthy change, something by referring to, I am also recognizing in the positive.

I admit, and have pointed out, where I generalize for sake of argument. I would rather give direct and factual examples, however, I simply fear the wrath of the DM Team for stating names, and examples, in negative terms. Trust me, I know what the outcome is, and I really do not enjoy getting "punished." Especially when I'm right!!!

Jokes aside, I can debate failures by all from all sides, for eternity. We are all fallible. But I will continue to point out that DMs have the most power, here, on this Server. Players can make requests, make a case, call in witnesses, whatever...but there is no final recourse, for the Player, here.

The only thing Players can do, if the Player Request system is not working for them, is ask for additional help. Which, I, for one, have done (and recently). And because Player Requests have not on the majority been helpful to support my various RP, I find my last recourse to ask the DMs to consider alternatives to the "strict" Player Request system.

DM Dialectic wrote:in general I would caution any players upset with the state of evil RP to be more patient, nuanced, and conciliatory in their demands as how to fix it as it can be quite demoralizing to DM team members (whom are all volunteers as you all know) to be bashed for not doing things that they are in fact spending lots of time and energy doing or are trying to do -- and demoralizing DM team members actually makes any DMing problem harder to solve, not easier.

I agree. I also believe the Players with Evil PCs have to work in tandem with the DMs, maybe even more so than those playing Good PCs.

So, after all that, in order to keep my post here relevant to the OP, I will say this one more thing:

D&D has always seemed, more or less, a game and a World—such as Forgotten Realms is—where Evil never really wins. There are many historic instances when Evil does actually change the World, but only for a time. As has been pointed out many times, especially by the DMs and lore keepers, the Sword Coast is very much a neutral to Lawful Neutral environment, and probably the most interest the people of this region have is making coin, having a warm fire, and eating juicy mutton (and some others things best left to ERPers

).

Of course, the FR world is inherently dangerous, wild, and a bit unruly. But that can easily fall under Chaotic.

So in this region of the Sword Coast, both the forces of Good and the forces of Evil should have equal power, in principle. That maybe more Players wish to RP good than Evil on this Server, creates one perception, but that does not then dictate how the Server IS.

In order to reflect how the Server environment "is," there should then be equal types of NPCs of all crosssections of the Alignment scale, so that PCs have micro-environments in which to exercise their "true nature," and thus Players can feel like the opportunities are there, for all.

However, from a personal standpoint, I would hope that a solution can be found where the variety of RP being desired doesn't have to translate into a wider, or disparate, Server, in terms of Areas and interactions. It seems already difficult to connect in many ways outside of certain small circles of RP. Something to pay attention to, and give attention to both IC and OOC distance.

DM Echo · Unread post by **DM Echo** » Sun May 15, 2016 12:03 am

Akroma666 wrote:I think this is a great start to creating some love for Evil, but I still do feel the staff needs to remember that Evil exists and wants to get some love and support too. DM's when you log in and what to create a random unscripted event, just think of maybe offering it to a couple random Evil PCs and what they might endever to do in a situation. That's I am asking.

I can't really speak for all of the DM team.. But when I look to create an unscripted event randomly.. I don't go around looking at players alignments to decide if i should run an event for them.. I look for people who are grouped in a PvE area (not FAI, Beregost, BG, Nashkel, etcetera), who are ideally walking (not running through the area, this is for multiple reasons but the biggest reason is because it takes time to set up for even unscripted events and if people are running they may run out of the area or run into your event before you are done setting up), and who are RPing (emotes, casual chatter, whatever.. just not doing a bunch of OOC talk in white back and forth while their IC chat is completely dead)..

I have other casual events planned, but the thing is it takes far more planning to do even a random evil event than a random unaligned event. By random unaligned event.. I mean.. killing some different mobs and a boss or finding some secret passage and delving into unexplored caverns is not good or evil.. It's just the life of an adventurer.

I have thought of some evil random events I want to use and have discussed them with the DMs to get their opinions and it seems like I am a go for them when I get the opportunity.. but they still required more planning and thought that any of my casual, spur of the moment, random events...

The Balance of Power

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