Requesting ruling: speaking while polymorphing.

[DM Ditto]

I have raised the topic with the rest of the DM team. One of us will let you know once there is a consistent set of guidelines to settle on.

[Syracuse]

I know I'm leaving, but I want to return attention to this topic. It will help every roleplayer to have a firm yes or no answer that ever wants to try druid.

Thanks.

[Syracuse]

Ping.

[Syracuse]

Bumping this thread for a ruling.

[DM Ditto]

There will be a response by the end of Sunday. We're just finalizing some things.

[DM Ditto]

After some discussion, the team believes that Moltrazahn's post is a good frame of reference to start with guidelines, with the following notes:

Wildshape: Animals can "talk" speak the animal-language. This does (depending on DM) sometimes mean you can talk to all other animals, and sometimes just your own species.

To remain consistent with the DM Rulings thread, keep in mind that the Animal "language" is not a spoken language per se and should not be used to communicate as you would a regular spoken language. "Animal" is more akin to Animal Empathy and is supposed to represent communication via animal body language and/or behavior, not only speech, so keep in mind that any concepts communicated via this avenue should be limited to what can be conveyed with only body language, behavior, and the animal's normal vocalizations.

Common can be spoken in non-magical beast shape, but whether it is legible Common will depend on factors such as, but not limited to, mouth/snout structure, the complexity/compatibility of the word(s) being spoken, and the effort on the wildshaper's part to communicate clearly. Overly long and complex words and/or sentences may still end up unintelligible regardless.

When in doubt, err towards caution, and at worst, assume that you can only speak what both you and the creature you've polymorphed into could speak.

Plant Wildshape: Treent can speak ent and fey. not common. However ent is not a language one can get without DM help. Depending on background/rp, this can be aquired from the staff. The Shambling Mound cant speak anything, as its basicly a intelligent carnivorous plant.

Treants speak the Treant language, not "Ent" (since BGTSCC is not set in Middle-Earth), and in the Forgotten Realms they are able to speak Common as well.

Elemental form: Elementals can speak their Elemental language if known to the caster (Ignan, Aquan, Earthen, windyblowblowy).

To add to this, Elementals are incapable of speaking Common, or any other language besides the one representing their element. As a pure embodiment of earth/fire/air/water/heart/etc. an elemental lacks the magical ability or physiology to communicate in any language other than the one representing its element, barring certain outside influences (of which polymorphing into an elemental is not one of them).

[Ariella]

Treant is a language however unless it got removed with the update, My druid could speak it.

[Syracuse]

Elemental form: Elementals can speak their Elemental language if known to the caster (Ignan, Aquan, Earthen, windyblowblowy).

To add to this, Elementals are incapable of speaking Common, or any other language besides the one representing their element. As a pure embodiment of earth/fire/air/water/heart/etc. an elemental lacks the magical ability or physiology to communicate in any language other than the one representing its element, barring certain outside influences (of which polymorphing into an elemental is not one of them).

I would like to ask if there is source material regarding this subject that was utilized in the decision process. These languages carry full alphabets in each case, sharing with many of the Prime Material planes. And given that the Monster Manual, to my knowledge, has no stipulations regarding how a elemental speaks; only that it is 'uncommon' for them to do so, I'm having a great deal of difficulty finding this ruling fair.

For reference on what I speak: http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/speakLanguage.htm

This link shows us that these languages carry more than just 'noises'. These are full languages that can be transcribed, carry a structure to them, and while they may 'reference' things associated with their individual planes, are otherwise languages that any creature that is not a elemental can speak, read, write, and so forth.

[DM Ditto]

Treant is a language however unless it got removed with the update, My druid could speak it.

Treant is indeed a language and it can be spoken. My point on the matter was to clarify the proper naming, as "Ent" is not the correct term for the language treants speak (as "Ents" do not exist in the Forgotten Realms).

Elemental form: Elementals can speak their Elemental language if known to the caster (Ignan, Aquan, Earthen, windyblowblowy).

To add to this, Elementals are incapable of speaking Common, or any other language besides the one representing their element. As a pure embodiment of earth/fire/air/water/heart/etc. an elemental lacks the magical ability or physiology to communicate in any language other than the one representing its element, barring certain outside influences (of which polymorphing into an elemental is not one of them).

I would like to ask if there is source material regarding this subject that was utilized in the decision process. These languages carry full alphabets in each case, sharing with many of the Prime Material planes. And given that the Monster Manual, to my knowledge, has no stipulations regarding how a elemental speaks; only that it is 'uncommon' for them to do so, I'm having a great deal of difficulty finding this ruling fair.

For reference on what I speak: http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/speakLanguage.htm

This link shows us that these languages carry more than just 'noises'. These are full languages that can be transcribed, carry a structure to them, and while they may 'reference' things associated with their individual planes, are otherwise languages that any creature that is not a elemental can speak, read, write, and so forth.

I suspect that the "alphabet" referred to in the link refers to the written alphabet, and it would be an interesting scenario to see an elemental being able to transcribe the written version of their respective languages, or someone transcribing what an elemental would communicate on a regular basis.

As you have mentioned, there is indeed no explicit stipulation regarding how an elemental would communicate, which leaves it open for interpretation - DM as well as player. While this can be interpreted and ruled differently in another FR scenario or server, for the purposes of the BGTSCC server the DM team has decided that an elemental would, under typical circumstances, only be able to verbalize in their native language.

I understand that our chosen stance may seem unfair to you, and this was a topic that wasn't easily decided upon. However, this is the stance that the team has opted to take, and for my part I believe that having limitations help catalyze some of the more interesting and memorable roleplaying scenarios. It is up to the individual player to decide if they wish to embrace the opportunities, though.

[Syracuse]

Unfair isn't the word I'm looking for. It flat out makes no sense, and I am challenging the dm team to support this decision with source material, not personal opinion.

As I am on my phone, I can't provide a link to the post. But I've made a topic in the subforum for rules.

Edit: And now I'm home. http://bgtscc.net/viewtopic.php?f=28&p=666098#p666098

While I agree that limitations can enhance RP and all that in certain circumstances, there's absolutely no reason to impose this limitation.

[arakes99]

The DM just stated that the source material leaves it open for interpretation, and they have interpreted it. What's left to argue about?

[DM Ditto]

Ruling has been finalized in the record of DM Rulings.

Updated 21/07/16

Thank you everyone for submitting their lore contributions for consideration and my apologies for the delay in review and posting.

Theo

Speaking While Polymorphed

If a polymorphed shape can speak common, it is capable of speaking any vocal language the character knows while in that shape.

Animal Shape - Only the animal language is available with fluency. Fragmented words in Common can be spoken in non-magical beast shape, but whether it is legible Common will depend on factors such as, but not limited to, mouth/snout structure, the complexity/compatibility of the word(s) being spoken, and the effort on the wildshaper's part to communicate clearly. Overly long and complex words and/or sentences may still end up unintelligible regardless. When in doubt, err towards caution, and at worst, assume that you can only speak what both you and the creature you've polymorphed into could speak.

Plant Shape - Treants speak the Treant and Common language. Shambling Mounds do not speak a formal language.

Elemental Shape - Elementals are incapable of speaking Common or any other language besides the one representing their element. As a pure embodiment of their plane an elemental lacks the magical ability or physiology to communicate in any language other than the one representing its element, barring certain outside influences (of which polymorphing into an elemental is not one of them).

Magical Beast Shape - Phase spiders do not speak. Winter wolves are capable of speaking common. Celestial leopards do not speak.

Dragon Shape - Dragons are capable of speaking Draconic and Common.