Pale Master-related questions/Rulings.

[Moltrazahn]

Hello staff!

So, I got some questions in regards to the Palemaster class. These focus primarily on how the mechanical benefits should be interpenetrated from an IC perspective.

1: "How to become a palemaster".
Now, various wikis states that to become a palemaster (or unlock it) you must:

Requirements
Alignment: Any nongood
Skills: Knowledge (religion) 8 ranks
Feats: Skill Focus (Knowledge[religion])
Spells: Able to cast command undead and vampiric touch as arcane spells.
Special: The candidate must have spent three or more days locked in a tomb with animate undead. This contact may be peaceful or violent. A character who is slain by the undead and later raised still meets the requirement, although the resulting level loss may delay compliance with other prerequisites.

- D&D Class Wikia.

Where we dont have the same requirements gamewise, nwn2 seems to still have some of the same, tho' simplified.

Requirements:
Alignment: Any non-good
Spellcasting: Ability to cast 3rd-level arcane spells

- Nwn2 wikia.

In essense, it seems quite easy to become a palemaster mechanically on our server, compared to what is required in the PnP-settings.

I've also heard that to qualify on our server, your PC must graft the undead arm onto yourself, despite this being a 6th lv Palemaster feature:

Undead Graft:
At 6th level, the pale master performs a horrific operation that replaces one of their arms with a supernaturally-animated, undead appendage. The pale master may make a touch attack with this arm that paralyzes the target twice per day. At 8th level, the pale master may use this touch attack three times per day.

My question is therefore in essense, what is the BGTSCC-IC requirement to unlock the Palemaster class? I find this is essential infomation to know before making a character background, so one can include how one chose this path.

2: "Undead Graft"

So, what constitutes as the undead graft? In Nwn1, at level 10, your arm would be replaced with a skeletal version.

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- Tatooed legs or creepy fleshy tail not part of post relevance

I've also read that in P&P, it does not have to be the arm, that one can use necrotic tissue from an undead onto your leg, back, head... really whichever suits your style. Now granted, I understand why it "has to be the arm" in the game-setting, given that otherwise the Undead graf & deathless master's touch would'nt make sense.

However, the main question is... Is it a zombi arm? A skeletal arm? ... what constitutes for this undead grafting on our server?

3: Bone skin & Deathless Vigor.

Bone Skin:
At 1st level, the pale master's tough, cadaverous flesh gives them a +2 natural armor bonus to AC. This bonus increases to +4 at 4th level and +6 at 8th level.

- Nwn2 wikia

Deathless Vigor (Ex):
Beginning at 5th level, a pale master's body becomes more akin to the undying flesh of his undead associates. The character gains a +4 bonus on Fortitude saves except against effects that also work on objects.

- D&D wikia

... Does the skin become icky and necrotic or something? The nwn2 wikia only states the mechanical benefits. I'd like to know what the DM-staff consider a ruling on the matter .

4: Hiding your arm in the Puplic.
Now... Your a palemaster. You mingle with the undead and are most likely into some weird stuff, however! - Every now and then, even a student of the undead-secrets to immortality need to go shopping for groceries. This usually means going to a town, and most towns would most likely start sharpening their pitchforks if you came their merry way.

I've heard that "people just wear a sleeve or thick robes", but if all of the above is true... spotting someone with PM levels is more akin to spotting your friendly neighborhood leper-guy. Ergo, its hard to not stand out.

I've taken to maxing out the Disguise skill, getting the Disguise spell plus Craft alchemy for them good L'Oréal fragrances, to bring RP to a reasonable point of "You neither see nor smell the horribly smelling person".

It seems to me that "only hiding your arm" is a somewhat easy "get off easy" card, but I may just be overthinking the matter. Is there any consensus on this?

5: Disease and Poison.
Now... Poison can affect the non-grafted part of the body. Because as much as the character is turning into something more undead-ish... they aint. they still need to eat, have bodily functions etc. However what about Disease? in the D&D version, they get immunity to both, because:

Tough as Bone (Ex):
On reaching 7th level, a pale master takes on even more of the qualities of an undead creature. He becomes immune to disease, nonlethal damage, and stunning.

- D&D wikia.

Deathless Mastery (Ex):
On reaching 10th level, a pale master gains the virtues of his deathless arts. His body becomes partly mummifi ed (though he is not truly undead), and he becomes immune to poison, sleep effects, paralysis, death effects, critical hits, ability drain, and energy drain, as well as damage to his physical ability scores (Str, Dex, and Con). He still needs to breathe, eat, and sleep as normal for his type, and he still ages normally.

- D&D wikia.

On Nwn2, it is as follows:

Deathless Mastery:
At the 10th level, the pale masters are practically undead creatures themselves. They gain immunity to critical hits.

- Nwn2 wikia.

Now, let me state that I am -NOT- asking for us to add this or even why it aint added to reflect the PnP-side... PM are crazy OP via their immunities as is. However, as with all questions, im curious to the IC-explination. You hang out with mummies, zombies, ghasts, ghouls... in general pretty unsanitary creatures. I suppose one could claim that Deathless Vigor is your "IC-explination why you aint dead from mummyrot already". But just how undead is a level 10 palemaster? Should it be considered something of note? do you look get that hollowed palpatine look or something?

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- I'm sexy and I know it

And just how "hard" would it be to hide these things?

My general concern is that I've seen "good" palemasters, I've seen picture perfect palemasters who apparently look like super-models... But actually reading into the class itself... I cannot image anything further from the truth. Yet I've not seen a ruling on the matter, so i thought id ask.

Thank you for your time!

[DM Theophanies]

Just to give a quick reply (meaning my opinions on the matter only):

1. I would lean towards what is said on the class description at level up. The lore on it can be used for extra RP but I wouldn't hold anyone to something that we don't explicitly state as a prerequisite. I consider grafting of the arm to occur when you get it at level up but it is a necessary thing at that point. I would consider bone skin more of something necessary to RP early on as you get it at level one.

2. I would consider a freshly removed and reanimated arm from a raised zombie or something akin. If people wish to RP a skeletal arm that is within the realm.

3. As above it describes the skin as cadaverous, so perhaps not infected/boils/"icky" but certainly becoming more grey, thin, corpselike. Essentially it would look dead. Since it grows in strength I would imagine there are levels of progression to this that can be RP'd.

4. Well i'd rather at least see someone RPing trying to cover it up then doing nothing what so ever. It could be a rather fresh graft with little decay. But beyond the arm there is also your pale looking skin. I would think there should be some significant RP investment into appearance if you are trying to hide it. Taking disguise is also a boon.

5. Well going off what we have available in game, perhaps they are sick often? They have high will but low fort to roll against. I would say it would depend on the level investment as well and their personal RP. If they hire others to drag corpses into their laboratory vs hanging out in crypts.

Overall: With how hard it would be? I would say it would have increasing difficulty with the more you invest into the class as you start grafting undead pieces onto you and your skin looks increasingly dead. As mentioned above, the disguise skill can act as a check and balance but even then it would still be tough with a level 10 pale master. Meaning a lot of potential RP there.

[Rhifox]

I'm not a DM so can't give any rulings, but since my alt is a pretty obvious pale master I thought I'd add some opinions on it from my perspective.


1) How to become a pale master?

PRC lore requirements for other classes have been upheld in the past on BG, particularly the 'you must die to become a blood magus'. And because it simply adds flavor, I'd personally recommend utilizing the lore requirement in your backstory.

I have not heard anything that indicates you must have the undead graft as a requirement for taking the class. Play-your-sheet rules indicates that you only get the graft at level 6.


2) Undead graft.

I don't see a reason for a DM ruling that forces a particular kind of graft. A great many things count as undead, and I personally feel the player should be free to determine how they choose to portray their graft based on their character's personality.

For my pale master, I go with a withered arm. Not entirely skeletal, but still very obviously unhealthy. Something like how Szass Tam's arms look like.

Other options I could easily see are spectral arms, internal necrotic cysts (as described in Libris Mortis) for a more 'hidden pale master', or even non-humanoid replacements.


3) Bone skin & Deathless Vigor

Again I feel player choice plays into this. With my pale master I go with a pale, corpse-colored skin that's tough as bone, but with a texture of polished bone. Something that's obviously "unnatural", but still beautiful for what it is.

But even though it's not as much bone, I could see alternatives based on the character. Things like spectral shrouds, for example, or zombie flesh that doesn't so much deflect damage like armor but instead simply eats blows without slowing down. There are many varieties of undead, so I again feel that pale masters should have a wide range of options based on their character.

Unmentioned, but I also like to go with red corpselight from the Darkvision feat, as most undead in DnD are noted for their glowing red eyes.


4) Hiding your arm in the public

Illusion magic. Transmutation magic. Makeup, heavy clothing. Necromantic alteration to make the arm look fleshy and human instead of obviously decayed or skeletal.

I for one don't see the issue in a pale master hiding themselves. Disguise is a class skill for them afterall, and mages in general are pretty capable of mystically altering their appearance.


5) Disease and Poison

The fact that Deathless Vigor only gives +4 to Fortitude saves and Tough as Bone/Deathless Mastery don't give full immunity in NWN2 indicates to me that by play-your-sheet rules, PMs in NWN are not immune to disease and poison but are more resistant to it.

As for how undead you are... I personally treat pale master as magic of integrating life with unlife. That is pale master's "shtick" in comparison to traditional undead-raising classes like True Necromancer or Dread Necromancer, or simple lich or vampire templates. You're not an undead creature, the description explicitly says that you are still alive... but you've done enough experimentation that you've managed to combine many of the strengths of an undead creature into the living form. Pale masters are somewhere "in-between" and I feel this is the best way to play them.

How hard it is to hide I'd say depends from pale master to pale master. It should always take some amount of effort to hide, but that effort can be either passive or active. I feel pale masters can develop themselves externally or internally, and just as any necromancer can make undead creatures that look living so too can a pale master develop themselves to look living. I do however think that you should have to use non-detection spells to avoid getting clocked on Detect Undead or Detect Magic effects, though.

[TheLier]

Could we get an offical ruling on it? Also, another one for blood mage?

This is very important as both are commonly picked PrCs. And both should have a lot of RP weight behind them, sadly rarely RP-d.

[V'rass]

Hiding your undead arm should not even be considered questionable... only a moron pale master would wander around with his undead arm showing, except maybe in Thay where such is perfectly fine. Simply wear a long sleeve shirt and gloves and you are fine. Already played on one server where hiding being a pale master was not only considered meta-gaming but could get you a permanent ban for "Conspiracy to evade rp and fraud". Dm's there turned the server into the 4th Reich. Im told it's been dead now for years...

[Xanfyrst]

Not sure it's still viable, but in the past some pale masters made a deal with a devil DM to remove the graft in return of also removing the Finger of Death thingie.

As said, that was in the past. Not sure the DM team allows these anymore and if they do, you need a good reason for getting this "treatment".

[DM Ditto]

Not sure it's still viable, but in the past some pale masters made a deal with a devil DM to remove the graft in return of also removing the Finger of Death thingie.

As said, that was in the past. Not sure the DM team allows these anymore and if they do, you need a good reason for getting this "treatment".

The current team doesn't allow this anymore. If you have the PM levels to get an undead arm, you have an undead arm.

We're discussing PM and Blood Magus RP as a result of this topic, so hopefully we'll be able to get back to you on this.

[Moltrazahn]

Much appreciated DM-team! Thank you very much for taking a debate on the matter. And of cause to those whom have been weighing in.

[TheLier]

Any updates regarding this?

[Torgerias]

Just weighing in as someone who played a PM in the past (though not enough levels of it to get the arm) I definitely took the "Bone Skin" RP to mean, at least in my case, that the character was pale, thin, and hollow, sunken, and sickly-looking. I definitely opted for a Palpatine-style look, but I would hope that as long as you make an effort to describe its effects in your own way it should suffice. I definitely don't agree with PM characters looking exactly like everyone else with no obvious exterior effects (IE they shouldn't be bronzed, rosy-cheeked beauties) though you shouldn't necessarily be able to point at them and scream "Pale Master!" either. I like the idea of taking the disguise skill to represent the use of makeup and the like to hide the class's effects.

[DM Ditto]

Pale Master and Blood Magus are already covered under the rules regarding "play your sheet", so we don't feel it necessary to include an exclusive ruling for them.

– "Play Your Sheet"
– You are required to play what is on your Character Sheet. For example, no role-playing of another Race if it does not appear on your Character Sheet. In-character (IC) lying and misinformation about your Character's skills, profession and morality is fair and acceptable, but Role-play which does not reflect the Abilities, Feats and Skills that exist on your Character Sheet, is not acceptable.

With regards to Pale Master: If you have bony skin, mummified flesh, and an undead arm, we would expect you to roleplay those qualities. Disguise ranks can be used to attempt to conceal these qualities.

[TheLier]

Pale Master and Blood Magus are already covered under the rules regarding "play your sheet", so we don't feel it necessary to include an exclusive ruling for them.

– "Play Your Sheet"
– You are required to play what is on your Character Sheet. For example, no role-playing of another Race if it does not appear on your Character Sheet. In-character (IC) lying and misinformation about your Character's skills, profession and morality is fair and acceptable, but Role-play which does not reflect the Abilities, Feats and Skills that exist on your Character Sheet, is not acceptable.

With regards to Pale Master: If you have bony skin, mummified flesh, and an undead arm, we would expect you to roleplay those qualities. Disguise ranks can be used to attempt to conceal these qualities.

That means, after reaching those levels, you are, in fact expected to roleplay those elements, not doing so -is- a breaking the play your sheet rule?

Correct?

[DM Ditto]

Yes. Keep in mind that these qualities do allow some room for interpretation alongside the aforementioned Disguise ranks to conceal the more off-putting characteristics.