Legion of Doom - Evil Think Tank

[thids]

The horrible setting that this server has currently, created by DM's past and maintained by the current DM team, requires 150% of effort from those playing non-hidden evil characters to get anything meaningful and long-term out of it. It demands the highest of standards of roleplay from a player or a group. And the sad fact is, very few players are up to those standards. As for the other side of the alignment spectrum... Standards? What standards?


If the setting wasn't such garbage, you could have even simple brigands, stalking the tradeways, and still get meaningful long term plots and RP out of it. And I'm not going to lay the blame at the DM team, it's this communities fault as well. This community has a tendency to outright ruin roleplay at every turn when it's even remotely related to evil. There is a large percentage of players who view this game in a black and white way, and they furiously try to enforce that kind of setting and world view with their roleplay. In the end, that is exactly what this setting comes down to, black and white, the worst kind of Saturday morning cartoon bs. All because of those people and the DM's past.


A unified Legion of Doom is actually a terrible idea which even further enforces this b&w bs, and it will never work. Temporary alliances, or smaller prolonged ones which exist on the brink of betrayal the entire time, are much more believable, organic and likely to function without railroading. Of course it would all be much more interesting if there was an actual political scene on this server, but there isn't one. The team good frolicking in front of the dukes once every few months and complimenting each others on their dresses, with the Thayans being the only "undesirables" who are rarely even allowed to speak openly without interruptions, is a far cry from a proper political scene.

Ah well, this game is all about make-believe in the end, right? If people want to stay in their delusional bubble, who am I to try and burst it.

[Garn Greymoon]

The horrible setting that this server has currently, created by DM's past and maintained by the current DM team, requires 150% of effort from those playing non-hidden evil characters to get anything meaningful and long-term out of it. It demands the highest of standards of roleplay from a player or a group. And the sad fact is, very few players are up to those standards. As for the other side of the alignment spectrum... Standards? What standards?


If the setting wasn't such garbage, you could have even simple brigands, stalking the tradeways, and still get meaningful long term plots and RP out of it. And I'm not going to lay the blame at the DM team, it's this communities fault as well. This community has a tendency to outright ruin roleplay at every turn when it's even remotely related to evil. There is a large percentage of players who view this game in a black and white way, and they furiously try to enforce that kind of setting and world view with their roleplay. In the end, that is exactly what this setting comes down to, black and white, the worst kind of Saturday morning cartoon bs. All because of those people and the DM's past.


A unified Legion of Doom is actually a terrible idea which even further enforces this b&w bs, and it will never work. Temporary alliances, or smaller prolonged ones which exist on the brink of betrayal the entire time, are much more believable, organic and likely to function without railroading. Of course it would all be much more interesting if there was an actual political scene on this server, but there isn't one. The team good frolicking in front of the dukes once every few months and complimenting each others on their dresses, with the Thayans being the only "undesirables" who are rarely even allowed to speak openly without interruptions, is a far cry from a proper political scene.

Ah well, this game is all about make-believe in the end, right? If people want to stay in their delusional bubble, who am I to try and burst it.

I've got to ask how is this helpful to the topic?

I love a good white v black contrast. Too much muddling in the gray gets complicated and people lose interest. There's a reason why cinematic moments we see on film depict the protagonist v antagonist in black v white.

I'd love to see some major impact and rumblings happen. Like for instance a large group of players getting together making a orc horde and razing a town Inot the ground.

Or drow assassinating the Duke or ruling class. Something drastic.

[Young Werther]

I've seen three or four pirate groups get frustrated and leave and or turn into neutral seafarers. On some levels it's our fault for not organizing properly on other levels there is pressure to be good making evil feel lame when prepetrated. Also when I first started you had to wait for DMs to notice your RP to get any special events and that tended to shut out a lot of characters that the majority tend to shun and even mock in RP: overt and known evil.

[thids]

I've got to ask how is this helpful to the topic?

I do not understand the question, the post is fully on topic, and to the point.

I love a good white v black contrast. Too much muddling in the gray gets complicated and people lose interest. There's a reason why cinematic moments we see on film depict the protagonist v antagonist in black v white.

Except, you know, when they don't? Which is the situation in majority of the cases if you look back at the last ~20 years. If you like it, that's fine, however that is an unhealthy RP environment, as evident from the situation on this server.

[Tekill]

Thanks Thids - a lot of us feel the exact same way, to some degree or another. Really good points.
I personally want to blame neutral characters as well for the B&W'ness you mentioned. I mean it really is up to them to supply the grey! – I believe that neutral pc's often play more good aligns then chaotic or nuetral (personal belief – not provable).
Young Werther points out - a good example of our up hill battle being evil.
Back in the early days of NWN1 - the severs had really loose rules on pvp. It was a blood bath- team death match style. They then set up more rules- made things reasonable. But then what happened was that even though these rules were being followed, peoples feeling were still getting hurt. These people would then cry..er complain to the DM's. The DM's then got fed up with all the whining and said fine - we are going to make strict PVP rules. Now the DM's generally argued that this was a democratic choice – but honestly – I think they just did not want to deal with all the Bull crap – and I would have done the same. Now this happened basically across all servers and evolved into the way NWN persistent worlds generally all handle PVP.
I think these rules directly impact the way evil players can RP being evil. We basically have to get permission from other players to be our victem's. Where as if the goods catch us up breaking the rules and being bad – they are free to be heavy handed with us.
But that is the way it is. Lets assume we can not change this, because we cant. I personally have tried and failed. I do intend to try again.
So we need to work around it. And that is what I am getting at with this evil think tank.

A unified Legion of Doom is actually a terrible idea which even further enforces this b&w bs, and it will never work.

So yeah Thids your version or idea of a LoD idea probably is garbage. Mine is going to be f'n amazing! (My plan definitely does not suggesting all the evil player group up into one happy family, to go grinding hill giants and paladins.)
Besides either way that is just one idea- to try unify the evil's together a bit more. As stated above the rules make it an up hill battle - A lot of us evil players simply can not find other evil players to hang out with.
Maybe we can all give all evil characters detect evil? J/k. I dont think we have to metagame- but maybe being a pinch more Black and white in certain areas of our RP - to counterbalance the overall system is necessary? Maybe?
Some more tips/ideas would be nice.
With some more solidarity we can create a evil social/political system. We can be free among ourselves to express out true evilness- we can group up more – and have more players to plot evil plots, including back stabbing and in fighting. This will also increase the evil player population. There will definitely be in fighting and back stabbing – I sure as hell hope there will be- that will be the fun part- but we need to find a way to organize - or we will continue to stay impotent.

Of course it would all be much more interesting if there was an actual political scene on this server, but there isn't one.

This seems to be what I am after. Can you elaborate more on you ideas regarding an actual political scene- I think I like where this is heading.

[DM Pun Pun]

The problem I find is this server does not take conflict well at all. On both sides(heck even the people who claim to love conflict), we DMs tend to get a lot of complaints about it. Its just not something that goes over well here.

How this correlates to evil: Most evil players and groups WANT to be in direct conflict with players of the other groups. And then we get the above.


If you want this "Legion of Doom", I would advise you get more creative then "We are forming this to fight all the guilds we consider Good-natured". Think outside of the conflict. If conflict does happen, then its usually more accepted if it happened because of the RP, not because the motivation from the start warranted it. Have a TRUE PURPOSE. Something you can work towards that the RP can be genuine about.

[Young Werther]

As a player of an Aurilite I can safely say that waiting for the world to freeze over is a great way to role-play evil on this server. Of course I'll speed it up if offered the chance.

[Steve]

Have a TRUE PURPOSE. Something you can work towards that the RP can be genuine about.

I think many of the Evil PCs created by Players have True Purpose. They are well thought out Characters, with needs and desires that motivate to outwardly express their morality.

But I also believe that nothing PCs do will come to much fruition unless a DM or DMs create avenues for the Evil-minded PCs to explore.

Dialectic started on something with his somewhat recent High Captains of Roaringshore RP for the Evil-minded. But has anyone heard from Dialectic in weeks!?!

I actually think a Legion of Doom type moment could exist if a DM came up with a scenario like the Lich General of the Warlock's Crypt, but in opposite, for the Evil-minded orgs to work together against. Like, a Harper Jamboree was going to happen, and the Evil Guilds would need to pull their resources together in order to either a) infiltrate it, b) destroy it, c) something-I-don't-know.

But c'mon, one has to admit: there is a reluctance on to let Evil Groups actually manipulate the IG environment. Hellz, even the last Mega Campaign barely changed the Sword Coast environment!

I'm not trying to complain here, as it probably seems I'm "at it again." My point being is: throw these Evil Dogs a bone, and then maybe, it will generate more fruitful RP, for everyone, no matter what side of the fence you're on.

Please?

[Moltrazahn]

I also think there is a point to mention ... "good people" have a ruling npc to go to for advice on how to progress which is represented by the staff... and a semi-common standpoint. Namely... Baldurs gate. And the dukes.

Evil have no common npc or city in this regard. Sure there are lore relevant characters and locations... like dark hold, sammaster and such. However these represent certain perspectives that "all evil factions" can't get behind.

Where the dukes are mostly about "let's try not to die from this next crisis and get everyone to pitch in..." the "evil" gang lack the same super villan npc city-faction that we can all unify under that goes "okay... so... we want to keep our lands and dominions secure from this next would be upstart as well... so.. this should what I need you all to do amongst yourselves".

We basically lack a common npc leader that all can relate to the same degree as the good folks can the dukes... and given how most evil factions function... that's hard to acomplish.

Unless we get Sarevok. .. I could dig that from any faction just out of pure fangirlgasm.

Edit:
Mind you. I'm not saying evil factions don't try to pitch in from their own angels not that the dukes always gathers people and tells them what to do. Just that having the gate. And the dukes. Represents a common thing within most good factions and characters. "Let's keep this from falling apart"-isk viewpoint.

[Blame The Rogue]

in pnp, a dm would oversee every moment, of a group, against his/her environment

this server is based on a game, where the player, goes against the environment, with their party

this game itself, works the same way as the previous post

all those are instances of pve, and not pvp. it is a mindset not easily changed. it's engrained

when a character not under control of dm or ai comes at someone's character, they get the immediate feeling that something is "off", and are like, "whoa, wait a sec, you're not a dm"

ooc communication before ic action helps, but i'm not sure what else can be done, other than a dm running the show, on a large scale event/series, and the above suggestion of working towards a common goal where pvp is not the goal or sole purpose

also, be understanding of those not wanting to get involved in the plots or pvp. some are here solely to tell their story. others solely for pve. others solely for dm events. or combinations of the aforementioned, etc

[Kagger911]

also, be understanding of those not wanting to get involved in the plots or pvp. some are here solely to tell their story. others solely for pve. others solely for dm events. etc

Then why do they join in on the pvp? Why do they choose to fight against the baddies when they're "Not wanting to get involved." Yet they stand there ten to one and when they lose they complain. I accept that if you don't wan tot be part of it, send a simple ooc tell. I'm alright with it. I for one sit at this point where if I say too much oocly, people will metagame me. Its happened with the Kogans, it's happened with the Dead crows, It's happened with Kagger while he's wearing a mask and full disguise.

So, if they want to enjoy rp; Why get salty when they lose politically and mechanically?

Hell half the time I'm quiet even to the DM team, because I know there are people who play character side who are on the team. That being said, I know it's a biased opinion and I rather listen to more of you guys since mine is/was mitigated unless begged for.

[Blame The Rogue]

players voluntarily get involved in pvp for one of two reasons. they like pvp. pvp was part of the dm event they were involved in

i offer/offered no opinion on players willingly getting involved in pvp, then complaining when they lose

[Young Werther]

Imo Ssasamath the UD city *could* be a hub of evil RP if it was an open trade route between the surface and there. (Suggestion)

[Kagger911]

A unified Legion of Doom is actually a terrible idea which even further enforces this b&w bs, and it will never work. Temporary alliances, or smaller prolonged ones which exist on the brink of betrayal the entire time, are much more believable, organic and likely to function without railroading. Of course it would all be much more interesting if there was an actual political scene on this server, but there isn't one. The team good frolicking in front of the dukes once every few months and complimenting each others on their dresses, with the Thayans being the only "undesirables" who are rarely even allowed to speak openly without interruptions, is a far cry from a proper political scene.

^ The only way for this to happen, is if we all got our priorities straight and stopped trying to low blow a baddy that his plot set up. Hell if anything you do something to gain something. [ Edit. ]

If anything the only way to becomes a group that works together, is if we become a group that works together and doesn't let their egos get in the way of their feet. [ Helpful Moderator Edit: Let's all be nice to each other OOC, even if we're bad guys IC. ]

[Boddynock]

If you want this "Legion of Doom", I would advise you get more creative then "We are forming this to fight all the guilds we consider Good-natured".

I hate to be the one to say this, and pardon the language, but if we are supposed to avoid conflict with good aligned player factions, then what the hell are baddies supposed to do? Forgotten Realms is one of the most religious settings that has ever been written, as a result baddies generally belong to, and are attempting to promote the ideals of, an evil deity...

But, let's say you're a fan of Loviatar, well the Ilmateri are already your enemy. Want to be a follow of Shar, here come the Selunites. Want to be a dark elf, well all the other elves already hate you. We didn't create that conflict, it is written into the setting from the start.

The reason that evil PCs and good PCs often come into conflict is, and this should not come as a surprise, we are all here to play together. No one really plays here for the single player experience., and the DMs are too few and too busy to keep everyone entertained and segregated. And I know for a fact that the DMs have straight shut down ideas of mine that were both easy to facilitate and would have only minorly chaotic repercussions (not even remotely grand or setting altering) and they have shut down ideas that were not only realistic, but lore appropriate, and also would have had VERY LITTLE interaction of directly conflicting RP with team good guy.

So when you say we aren't getting creative, I call shenanigans. We are, we just keep getting told "no." After the upteenth "no" we stop asking and just do things out of boredom.