Legion of Doom - Evil Think Tank

[kkrazlite]

The problem I find is this server does not take conflict well at all. On both sides(heck even the people who claim to love conflict), we DMs tend to get a lot of complaints about it. Its just not something that goes over well here.

How this correlates to evil: Most evil players and groups WANT to be in direct conflict with players of the other groups. And then we get the above.


If you want this "Legion of Doom", I would advise you get more creative then "We are forming this to fight all the guilds we consider Good-natured". Think outside of the conflict. If conflict does happen, then its usually more accepted if it happened because of the RP, not because the motivation from the start warranted it. Have a TRUE PURPOSE. Something you can work towards that the RP can be genuine about.

Ill keep this simple for you. . . How are we suppose to be creative when 9 times out of 10 the DM team says no? Even if it is a minor deed of evilness, if you ask the DM team about it you better have a 9 page explanation behind it. . . And this has become the standard for trying to get any type of evil related plot into the world. Yet! Hell if the goodies want to make something as simple as a barn inside of BG, BOOM DONE there is the barn in the server for all to see. Oh but here comes that person that wishes to burn the barn down.

DM: "Um. . . Yeah roll Move Silent, Hide, Slight of Hand, and Disguise DC 45"

What did the goodies roll? DC 5 vs STR to pick up the lumber?

[thids]

*snip*

You are yet again focusing on separating the players into an evil group that opposes the rest, and that in itself creates the black and white scenario. If you want to throw the ball around more, or have questions you can PM me.

The problem I find is this server does not take conflict well at all. On both sides(heck even the people who claim to love conflict), we DMs tend to get a lot of complaints about it. Its just not something that goes over well here.

How this correlates to evil: Most evil players and groups WANT to be in direct conflict with players of the other groups. And then we get the above.


If you want this "Legion of Doom", I would advise you get more creative then "We are forming this to fight all the guilds we consider Good-natured". Think outside of the conflict. If conflict does happen, then its usually more accepted if it happened because of the RP, not because the motivation from the start warranted it. Have a TRUE PURPOSE. Something you can work towards that the RP can be genuine about.

Last time a thread like this was brought up, I pointed out the faiths, and yet here we are some six months later and not a single step was made in the right direction. Why are the only two evil faiths with public temples Auril and Umberlee? Where are the rest? Temple of Bane ruins which the Zhentarim guild has wanted to restore into a proper temple for years was turned into a level 3 dungeon, where farmer boys and girls who just bought their first dagger get to bash some banite skulls. Woooooo. Of course we were denied for years, because it's lore appropriate that it's a ruin. You have NO issues with sticking to lore when things like that are in question. Why is every major evil faith banned from Baldur's Gate? Why is the only major evil god allowed inside Baldur's Gate Umberlee, and even THAT would be shunned and discarded as unimportant if the lore wasn't so heavily set on the fact that Umberlee is likely one of the biggest faiths within the city of Baldur's Gate? If I remember correctly, when Steve requested to have a seat at the FEC there was a literal O U T R A G E from players, claiming that Umberlee has no place looking for a seat on a committee like that. UMBERLEE, NO PLACE ON A COMMITTEE DEDICATED TO COMMERCE. IN A PORT CITY. HOOOOOOOOLY... That outrage is a prime example of the RP ruining intentions of anything related to evil that plenty of players in this community have. Majority of other gods got banned from the city because apparently SEVEN YEARS AGO players RPing followers of those faiths used to kill guards and NPC's within the city, when that was mechanically possible. Not a single DM EVER had an appropriate IC answer to "Why are Bane, Myrkul and Shar banned from BG?". The response for Myrkul is usually "uhhhhhhhh there is a graveyard full of undead near the city." Why do we have peaceful farmlands with guards posted and a paladin headquarters in front of the city instead of a lore-accurate lawless outercity where evil minded and shady characters could actually RP what they want to RP in a city-like environment, and still be close to the center of the server? I'll just point out this part again, as it's important, SEVEN YEARS.


Why does this law still exist:

- Zhentarim agents are banned from the city of Baldur's Gate and its Environs, for their support of the Black Hand and the Zhentarim's emnity to the good people of Baldur's Gate. They shall be brought to Justice for breaches of this ban and any other crimes within the jurisdiction of Baldur's Gate, unless dispensation is granted by the Dukes to vary the above.

When it was pointed out CLEARLY that more than enough was done for that ban to not exist anymore, something that we were not even aware when the ban was discussed? The ban is a result of something a DM did with Zhentarim NPC's FOUR YEARS AGO without consulting the players in the guild. And yet, ever since DM Golem stepped down, I'm not getting encouraging vibes from the DM team, instead I'm getting "hey, I'm not going to tell you what to focus on as a guild, but this is going to be HARD. How about you guys throw some charity events?" I have no problems with the HARD part, but I do have issues with having to bend the faction I love and have been a part of for 3 years into an unrecognizable monstrosity to right a wrong made by an incompetent and inconsiderate DM in the past because the DM team doesn't have the courage to do the right thing. Because those players who view the world in black and white, and think that the city of Baldur's Gate is a bastion of lawful goodness will throw a fit, and the DM team just can't handle it. FOUR YEARS.


[ Helpful Moderator Translation: It would be nice if the DMs spread the love a little more, particularly to evil characters who feel like they're just not given the same sort of attention that the good guys are. ]


Why do we have to come up with our own detailed plots, and basically do half the DMing ourselves when we want a faction we're a part of to do something? Why do we have to set majority of the world and the choices in front of a DM instead of the other way around? Do you think it's fun to be doing the DM's work all the time, and think like a DM should, as a player? Why does evil have to go through player request system for EVERYTHING, when plots for good aligned folks are served to them on a platter on a weekly basis? Where have the storytelling DM's gone? I've had one such event, not related to a guild, thrown at me in my 3 years here, want me to tell you a story about it? Let's talk about a dragon which was THROWN at my character and two Thayan characters during our roleplay. The dragon was slain and the event had a fairly simple followup, which was heavily encouraged by the DM in question. I discretely reminded the DM every now and then, and even offered to simply buy something from one of the stores, and RP around it as if it was the result of that particular event, but nah the DM seems to have wanted to drag me along. Here we are, exactly a week shy of three months, where is our followup?

[ Helpful Moderator Translation: Please try to conclude the events you begin. We want to see the end of the movie! ]


[ Helpful Moderator Translation: Instead of deflecting our feelings or excusing past behavior, might I suggest instead that the DMs engage those players wanting to author evil schemes to figure out ways we can work together to make the server more fun for everyone? Evil can be fun all on its own, but sometimes a little DM help goes a long way in making the world more alive for us too. ]

[Maecius]

Let's simmer down in here everyone.

We should be able to have a conversation about playing a particular type of character on the server without getting the thread locked.

[khaevil]

You want to be evil?
Roll up a drow, and RP it like it's supposed to be done. You can back stab each other to your hearts content and anyone who doesn't like it should be told to either get with the program or get out of the underdark. I'm pretty sure the carebears haven't taken over down there yet.

[Tekill]

Okay so the evil can of evil worms has been evilly opened..
Not sure what *snip* means - some sort of typo?
So first we vent then we heal....
We need to examine the problem before we start working on a cure.

Looks like a lot of player frustration. Good points regarding BG lore, Thids. Did'nt even cross my mind. Seems very valid to me.

I have to say I am glad I am not the only one that thinks there needs to be some kind of changes - the goal is to see if as players we can make some changes on how we are handling evil in character and OOC.

There is an argument that the DM's are not doing enough for us evil players. I have been a part of a couple evil DM events (in my short time on the server) . One went terribly with two players stopping in the middle of our mission to try and PK each other - DM right there watching the whole thing. And yes, there was arguing after the fight about the fight being unfair - it became pretty awkward.

So it seems that the DM's have been neglecting us evil types- probably definately true - BUT - you got to admit a lot of players are very bitchy (on all servers). The DMs are here to have fun too- it seems most of them simply want to DM good or neutral events/plots.
The question is why?
This goes back to the argument that a lot of us evil characters are more part of the problem then part of the solution?
Do the DM's just not want to bother with us - Are we a baddies a general pain in the butt?

So the Legion of doom idea was just one idea to get the ball rolling - it has not even been flushed out yet it is only a kernel of an ideal. ((although my pc has some plans))
Another idea is to have a more clearer political atmosphere that the would guide evilness- this also needs to be flushed out.
Another idea is about some sort of existing evil supremacy- Evil Dukes - which is interesting. I always wondered why BG does not have an active Player run Thieves Guild. C'mon people - organized crime!
Someone sent me an idea via personal post -for the idea of a list of volunteers willing to play a roll in our evil characters plots. Here is my reply to that.

Hey thanks for the message.
The victim list is a good idea - just a matter of how to implement it. It's probably best to leave it in the hands of a certain DM.
That DM would request volunteers - when an evil group needs victims for a caper they ask that dm. That dm then asks the volunteers- the volunteers and the evil folk work it out. Even if it is a volunteer to agree to pvp with the villains in an effort to stop them- the victim may become the victor....keep it random.
But it could also end up being a bit made up or fake - then again once its actually RP'd out - depending on the scenario- there will still be unknown variables that will affect the evil groups caper one way or another.
Im going to post it in the forum.
good idea!

So there is some more fuel for the fire. Anyone else recapping what we accomplished so far?
Would it be possible to start an evil ooc player faction? Sort of a way to better organize our selves?
Am I grasping at straws here?

[Aspect of Sorrow]

Not sure what *snip* means - some sort of typo?

Shortening to respond to context for readability.

[kellendril]

I had my eye on this from the very beginning of the thread as one that might require moderation. That should tell you something about this type of thread. Obviously, it has gotten the attention of the mods and clearly Maecius also. If you want to have a civil discourse, fine. If not, then expect a response from the moderation team. It's not hard to take a step back and re-read your post before clicking the "post" button. I would recommend it in this case as it is getting more and more heated as the discussion has progressed. Deep breath everyone..

I think the idea of a "Legion of Doom" won't work since it is asking all the evil folks to work together ICly, which I can't see happening ICly. Maybe I'm wrong, but I think that there is less cooperation (naturally) between many of the evil groups because of their inherent selfish nature.

[Calodan]

It could work......but the person running it must be providing something that serves the ones who follow. Or have some sort of debt they need to pay so they are bound to service. So most likely it would be a group of baddies who most likely agree to start from day 1 at level 1 and build this legion. The whole background of each PC tied into the reasoning as to why they are actually working together. Much like good aligned groups have a great goal the bad guys do as well but it is tied in the things that motivate the bad guys. It is RP and I would think anything is possible with the right thought put behind it. I am willing to be a part of something like this. It sounds interesting and new. I have been playing the hero archetype so long I need something new.

[Darradarljod]

Sounds great. Boris could use some friends to help him paint his white picket fence and maybe even carpool to work.

[DM Pun Pun]

Yet! Hell if the goodies want to make something as simple as a barn inside of BG, BOOM DONE there is the barn in the server for all to see. Oh but here comes that person that wishes to burn the barn down.

Do you see where the issue is here? If someone wants to build a barn and they do it(paying the gold and RP and such involve, and then anotehr player says "Hey can I burn it down?", that's creating direct conflict with that player. There is a high chance we will not endorse that kind of action unless you have a strong legitimate reason other than "I just want to burn the man's barn down".

@Thids: 7 years is a lot of history, and players have influenced it, both for good and for evil. Did you know the first Khazark rode an undead dragon into Baldur's Gate. He was defeated, but it banished the Red Wizards from the city. It took 2 years of RP and work, but finally they were able to get back in the good graces of the city as you see today. So its not impossible.

Things can change. It does happen. But you can't just say "Why isn't this the way I want it to be" and expect results without effort.

The way we run things now, we favor no one. The guilds and groups getting by now, they are doing it on their own.

I'm not sure if the Zhentarim could ever get on the FEC or the War Councils we have had however. Honestly, we didn't form them, that was a coalition of players. We just encourage player initiatives, we don't dictate them.

[Steve]

[
I'm not sure if the Zhentarim could ever get on the FEC or the War Councils we have had however. Honestly, we didn't form them, that was a coalition of players. We just encourage player initiatives, we don't dictate them.

Encouragement is great! That should be more forthcoming both IC and OOC!

But what would also be great is encouragement for Players to accept the fact of consequences for their Characters actions.

Because there DOES EXIST plenty of OOC disregard for Players trying to promote the dogma of Evil Gods and dogma of Evil organizations.

And if OOC reason causes IC decisions to be made, then let's see some more realistic consequences coming from the DM Team, please. Because you guys essentially control the Environment, and how we Players can react to it, depends on whether we see encouragement to take it seriously.

It isn't about dictating, and I totally agree that shouldn't happen.

But what also shouldn't happen is supporting outcomes just to make everyone happy, and to let Players keep their happy PCs happy in safe happy land.

I'd like to say further that through conflict RP can come the result of a sense, a feeling of accomplishment, when either enacting or defending the ideals and morals of your Character. Conflict isn't simply about PAWNing others for shits and giggles, but actually trying to iterally represent Evil dogma through our PCs actions IG.

If those IC, IG actions are just too difficult to enact for whatever IC and OOC reason, some already mentioned by others, it can be a real drag.

Such a drag even, that I, yes me, is considering playing a Paladin because my years of Evil-minded RP has fallen rather flat, in this environment. And all I really want is to put effort toward seeing literal changes to the environment through my Characters deeds. Which is simply WAY easier to make happen if you play on Team Good.

[TheTwiste11491]

Encouragement is great! That should be more forthcoming both IC and OOC!

But what would also be great is encouragement for Players to accept the fact of consequences for their Characters actions.

Because there DOES EXIST plenty of OOC disregard for Players trying to promote the dogma of Evil Gods and dogma of Evil organizations.

And if OOC reason causes IC decisions to be made, then let's see some more realistic consequences coming from the DM Team, please. Because you guys essentially control the Environment, and how we Players can react to it, depends on whether we see encouragement to take it seriously.

It isn't about dictating, and I totally agree that shouldn't happen.

But what also shouldn't happen is supporting outcomes just to make everyone happy, and to let Players keep their happy PCs happy in safe happy land.

I'd like to say further that through conflict RP can come the result of a sense, a feeling of accomplishment, when either enacting or defending the ideals and morals of your Character. Conflict isn't simply about PAWNing others for (#2) and giggles, but actually trying to iterally represent Evil dogma through our PCs actions IG.

+1

[Moltrazahn]

Perhaps it takes a different approach.

What if evil guilds forget the history. Take an ooc choice to give this a shot. All it takes is 1 person from each faction to come to meetings, represent an ear and ( later ) a voice. For now, We just need for people to get together in a non hostile Environment... and iron out what we'd all expect from such an organisation, and have a measure of internal security for the guilds included.

For me it is simple. I come from an ooc standpoint of wanting fun for everyone involved. I'd want the factions focus to be fun, pve and story based. I could for the most part not care for what happeed between the factions in the past... and focus on the future aspecs rather. Let the scheemers scheme internally against each other. That's fine! Just need a person people trust to be fair oocly given the sensitivity of the matter as chairman.

It starts as an ooc ideal. And then we can slowly and truly give it a shot ic'ly. Aslong as the representatives involved are wiling to give a little leeway in the startup process.

[Steve]

Moltra, you're stating good ideas, and I support it.

However, I've tried your approach 3 times on BGTSCC, and IC reasons always get in the way.

I no longer believe Players can build a "legion of doom" organization. It can only be done if supported by a DM, using a NPC that helps support the construction and execution of the ideals of such a "legion."

Otherwise, Epic Fail!!

[Calodan]

"I just want to burn the man's barn down".

I am sorry Pun-Pun but this is CHAOTIC EVIL in a nutshell. SOME PEOPLE JUST WANT TO SEE THE WORLD BURN FOR NO OTHER REASON THAN IT SPITES!

That is part of what evil does. Protecting what good people do so there is no conflict is pretty much railroading that only good can win and evil has to be back seat and non-existent.

In order to fix the conflict issue you first have to remove the safety valve for good PCs and then tell them that this is part of the world they are in. We have to retrain the server for evil to start to thrive and be a viable RP avenue for other players as well. Basically what I am saying is that the DMs created this by creating rules that supported this. It needs to be removed and everyone needs to understand that your RP could be swept away with the tide if another RP is currently going as well. That is part of it. That is part of RISK VS REWARD.

I also know exactly what the EVIL PCs are saying about the ROLL CHECKS too. I have experienced it. As a GOOD PC I use one or two checks to accomplish the task. As a BAD PC I was not even given the time of the day to make checks to murder a NPC civilian during a festival. I won't go into details that is what it is at this point. I have not played that bad pc since really. Lost interest since I could not be bad.