Buff Half-Orcs?

[Sun Wukong]

I have been reading this topic of yours for a while now, and I have to agree with whoever started it in the first place. Half-orcs are a horrible choice for a character.

Appearance-wise they are forced to be bulky and towering and you cannot help but to stick out no matter what. You cannot even try to pass off as a regular human, whereas any half-elf could by simply donning a heavy cloak. (Hood.) We can give each other promises upon promises that we will not metagame a half-orc character, but there is no escaping it. Half-orcs are very obvious upon the first glance.

So let us have a look at the mechanics. Many have said that the Half-Orc is the ideal race for a melee character. I beg to differ and we might just as well start by having a look at the possible ability scores at character creation for a non-magical melee character:

Human:
STR: 16
DEX: 14
CON: 14
INT: 14
WIS: 10
CHA: 10
Total: 78

Shield Dwarf (+2 Con, -2 Cha):
STR: 16
DEX: 14
CON: 16
INT: 14
WIS: 10
CHA: 8
Total: 78

Earth Genasi (+2 Str, +2 Con, -2 Wis, -2 Cha):
STR: 18
DEX: 14
CON: 16
INT: 14
WIS: 8
CHA: 8
Total: 78

Wood Elf (+2 Str, 2 Dex, -2 Con, -2 Int):
STR: 16
DEX: 16
CON: 12
INT: 14
WIS: 10
CHA: 10
Total: 78

Half-Orc (+2 Str, “+1 Con”, -2 Int, -2 Cha):
STR: 18
DEX: 13
CON: 14 (13 without custom BGTSCC change)
INT: 13
WIS: 10
CHA: 8
Total: 76 (75 without custom BGTSCC change)

Dexterity and Intelligence of 13 are often necessary because of feat and prestige class requirements. From the top of my head, I could list such as: Dodge, Combat Expertise, and Improved Knockdown.

- Dodge is one the most common prestige class requirement feats. (13 Dex)
- Combat Expertise and its Improved variant provide survivability to any character that does not start out with ‘epic’ equipment. (13 Int)
- Finally, Improved Knockdown is one of the best feats any high strength melee character could take. (13 Int)

As for the above starting ability scores, those are for a ‘well rounded’ character. If you want to min-max them, you could always make do with a lower charisma and wisdom stats.

A starting charisma of 6 only imposes a -2 penalty on charisma based skills, and therefore the base intimidate skill of 33 will be dropped down to 31. The difference here is practically non-existent.

As for low starting wisdom, it will negatively affect your detection skills and will saves. As before, this drop in detection skills is barely notable. As for will saves, you can boost them by taking the Steadfast Determination, a feat which allows you to use your constitution modifier for will saves instead of wisdom.

As for other stats such as dexterity, constitution, and intelligence, it is a slightly different story.

If you do not meet the dexterity requirement of 13, you cannot qualify for the following PRCs: Weapon Master, Shadowdancer, Duelist, Dwarven Defender, Breach Gnome, Dervish, Dragon Slayer, Tempest, and Whirling Dervish. Additionally, you cannot go under 10 without taking a penalty to your AC, whereas 12 tends to be the preferable minimum to maximise your AC with any full-plate.

Constitution determines your hit points and fortitude saves. Every two points in constitution above 10 grants your character +30 hit points and +1 fortitude save, (and will save too with Steadfast Determination). Going below 10 means these bonuses are applied as penalties, so as with dexterity above it is not advisable to go below 10 or 12.

Finally, we can look at intelligence. By default every two points above 10 grants you +1 bonus skill point per level and as a custom change an additional language of your own choosing. Skills for the most part could be ignored, but I believe BGTSCC is a server where you are supposed to role-play your character sheet. Therefore, if any action of your character is covered by an in game skill, your actual success at this action will be determined by your skill investment. Thus investment in intelligence is not just required for feats or prestige classes, it is necessary to provide validity to your role-play.

Now, let us suppose that I were to create a barbarian character, a wild warrior of some kind and I would have to pick the race…

My first choice would be a Shield Dwarf. As discussed before, the penalty on charisma is redundant and I would have an access to the Battlerager PRC, I could even dip into fighter for some armour and shield proficiencies.

My second choice would be an Earth Genasi, and as before, I can ignore the penalties on wisdom and charisma relatively easily and the +2 strength makes up for the +1 ECL.

My third choice would be a Human, since that bonus feat and skill points could be handy and I could avoid some of the min-maxing with ease.

My fourth choice would be a Wood Elf. The constitution penalty ultimately means that my character will have 30-60 hit points less than with the above choices, however, it is still manageable. The penalty on intelligence hits hard, but thanks to +2 on both strength and dexterity I have the ability points to invest in intelligence for role-play reasons alone and be more or less comparable to a human in overall ability scores. The bonuses on detection skills also help to overcome the penalties from ignored wisdom.

My fifth and last choice would be a Half-Orc, and it is the only one with barbarian as its favoured class. Getting 13 intelligence does not cost ‘5 points’ like it does with a dwarf, earth genasi, or human, it costs: ‘8 points.’ Bumping it up to 14 costs a total of ‘6 points’ for the dwarf and ‘10 points’ to our half-orc and these points have to come out of the other ability scores. There is just no way around it.

Thus, the -2 intelligence makes the half-orc the inferior choice by default. I for one wouldn’t find it hard at all to outdo any Half-orc build with either a dwarf or an earth genasi. Just present me one, and I will come up with a better one.

So, how to improve half-orcs?

Well, if the half-orc had +2 Str, +2 Con, -2 Int, and -2 Cha, it would be comparable to a wood-elf with +2 Str, +2 Dex, -2 Con, and -2 Int.

(A wood-elf’s favoured class is a ranger, a base class that gives 4 skill points per level with base intelligence of 6. You have enough skill points to max Hide, Move Silently, Spot, and Survival if you so desire. With intelligence of 8 you could max Heal skill on top of the others. Not to mention that since you get common and elven as your default languages, you hardly have an in character reason to raise intelligence further. Then your ranger specific feats and your enhanced spell list allows you to buff up your AC, and deciding to go for two-weapon style with chain shirt lets you keep your dexterity relatively low as well, freeing points to both wisdom and constitution.)

But you could just as well remove the +1 Con buff and take away the -2 Int penalty to make half-orcs considerably more desirable and less of a gimped version of other races. (Regardless of the melee build in question.)

That’s all.


Edit: (Well, the skilled feat could help a bit with skill points... So it is better than nothing, along with that Improved Initiative feat... )

Edit 2: Just wanted to get this off my chest.

[Zanniej]

This topic has been discussed numerous times, thus a change is unlikely. You are however allowed to discuss it, but due to our recent experience with this topic, I'll close this topic as soon as I see anything getting even remotely close to breaking the rules.

I hope that, concerning the way the previous topic went, you (all) understand this.

There will ofcourse be no problem if everybody can keep this civil and respectful.

[mrm3ntalist]

Seeing the starting stats, i dont see any disadvantage about the half-orcs. I still believe they make stronger melee builds than humans. The only thing they are lacking is the multiclassing ( compared to humans ) where for some builds there can be a 20% xp penalty. Other than that, half orcs are great for an ECL 0 race.

[Storm Munin]

@OP

Since you mentioned Halfelves in the text it would imho make perfect sense to have the perks and stat bonuses (none, just like humans) of such present in your comparison chart?

Nor I see a reason to further stat buff halfhuman orken.
However I am all open for debate as to dropping some of the existing positive stat bonuses to win a lesser penalty in the presently negative stat bonuses.
Something similar to Imaskari perhaps?
Like +1 str and keep the "+1 con" while retaining the -2 cha but loosing the INT penalty to some degree?

Possibly the fighter class might be considered to replace barbarian, however I do believe lore tell us its fairly rare for anything halforken to breathe long unless barbarianbred?
Then again lore do tell us the human sword coast has somewhat of a fancy for halforken.

/M

[Sun Wukong]

Since you mentioned Halfelves in the text it would imho make perfect sense to have the perks and stat bonuses (none, just like humans) of such present in your comparison chart?

The reason I mentioned half-elves was because I have had several, and with some, I have taken steps to hide their elven heritage. They wear a hood, they wear helmet, and as a result most have thought them as yet another human being. It is something that will not happen with a half-orc and that is due to no other reason than how the NWN2 character models look like.

But as for your request,

Half-elf:
STR: 16
DEX: 14
CON: 14
INT: 14
WIS: 10
CHA: 10
Total: 78

I would place half-elves between humans and wood elves when it comes to making a barbarian character. Like humans, on BGTSCC, they gain the 'Skilled' trait which grants them additional skill points on a level up. They also posses partial skill affinity with detection skills that allows them to ignore the spot/listen penalty of an uninvested wisdom ability score. On top of that, half-elves also posses skill affinitities with bluff and diplomacy, which means that there is no actual penalty on those two skills from an uninvested charisma ability score. (You can cross class into bluff or diplomacy due to role-playing reasons, or acquire them as class skills from multiclassing.)

Other than that, half orcs are great for an ECL 0 race.

I would say humans are great for an ECL 0 race. I would say elves are great for an ECL 0 race. I would say dwarves are great for an ECL 0 race. I would say halflings and even gnomes are great for an ECL 0 race, because I encounter these races on the surface on a regular basis.

As for half-orcs... I guess there are two that are a regular sight. One is Arkaine Halforken, and the other is Captain Calico Flint. One of these is a NPC. Of course, once in every two years some people get together and roll out yet another half-orc tribe, but it has always faded away in a few months.

Thus, in my opinion, half-orcs are only really used by people who really, really want to play as half-orcs. Just like how some ignore the terrible stats of a kobold just because they really, really want to play as a kobold. This willingness to play as a specific race is not a testament to the quality of it, it is just willingness to play as one.

And I currently have a half-orc character. Mechanically, this high strength barbarian build of mine would have been better off if built with a dwarf, an earth genasi, or a human. Whatever half-orc build I have thought of over the years, the racial penalty on intelligence has persisted as a bottleneck to overcome. Hence, my request to buff this race by either removing the intelligence penalty or increasing the constitution bonus.

[mrm3ntalist]

And I currently have a half-orc character. Mechanically, this high strength barbarian build of mine would have been better off if built with a dwarf, an earth genasi, or a human. Whatever half-orc build I have thought of over the years, the racial penalty on intelligence has persisted as a bottleneck to overcome. Hence, my request to buff this race by either removing the intelligence penalty or increasing the constitution bonus.

Can you give me an example, how your HIGH STR barbarian would be better as a human or dwarf?

[Sun Wukong]

Can you give me an example, how your HIGH STR barbarian would be better as a human or dwarf?

Sure thing.

The starting ability scores of my half-orc were:

Code: Select all

STR: 19
DEX: 12
CON: 13 + 1
INT: 14
WIS: 8
CHA: 6

As a human I could easily have:

Code: Select all

STR: 17    or  18     or  17     or  17
DEX: 12    or  12     or  13     or  12
CON: 14    or  14     or  15     or  14
INT: 14    or  14     or  14     or  14
WIS: 8     or  8      or  8      or  10
CHA: 11    or  8      or  8      or  9

A human barbarian would have additional 33 skill points to spare and an additional feat that could be used to grab additional Extend Rage - allowing this character to rage longer. Moreover, even with the slightly reduced strength, I will still acquire Epic Rage on the exact same level.

As a dwarf I could easily have:

Code: Select all

STR: 18    or  17     or  17   
DEX: 12    or  12     or  13     
CON: 16    or  17     or  16    
INT: 14    or  14     or  14  
WIS: 8     or  9      or  10     
CHA: 6     or  6      or  8    

As a dwarven barbarian, I would have additional 30 hitpoints and an additional round of rage duration. Free dwarven waraxe weapon proficiency, and I would have such weapons available to use actually. Then there is that +4 AC against giants... which are still rather common group of mobs on the server.


In both cases, the only thing the half-orc has going on for it is +1 AB and Damage that I would not even notice gone.


But let us drop my half-orc's strength down to 17. Even if I were to drop the half-orcs strength to 17, this situation does not change by much. The dwarf remains the superior choice and although it becomes possible for the half-orc to have 'one or two' points higher base constitution than the human, the human still posses that extra feat and more skill points. Oh wait, as a human I could drop the intelligence and buff up constitution instead, so scratch that.

Finally, if we were to look at alternative class combinations; a dwarf opens a path to the Battlerager PRC, which is +2 AC and free charge feats on top of the fear immunity. The bonus feat human grants could be spent on dodge feat, which as discussed earlier, opens a path to a multitude of PRCs.

So what does half-orc actually offer at the moment? Basically unnoticiable +1 AB and damage per hit? You would need a DM created a monster with a very specific amount of damage reduction for that one point to stand out. Thus the only thing that +2 strength grants to a half-orc is a potential 5% higher chance of knocking someone down with Improved Knockdown - so basically nothing more than a slight advantage between two high strength builds duking it out. (Presuming you are not against an earth genasi, which could pass off as a human being underneath its helmet.)

I guess the above might be the reason why 'orc tribes' only pop up for a few months. Hence, to make most out of the half-orc you are kind of pushed towards the direction of PvP. I am not saying there is anything wrong with half-orc character seeking and creating trouble, it is just that our setting is without something like a hundred-year-war that could act as driving force behind PvP-orientated roleplay. Without any gargantuan factions or nations constantly clashing, without a reason for a 'tribalistic' side picking and hostilities, the PvP-orientated roleplay is basically just for shits-and-giggles. It grows old fast and the player run 'orc tribes' fade away.

In my opinion, a change to half-orc's racial ability modifiers could help the race be something other than a sporadic nuisance.

[AC81]

Here's a half-orc that I built with minimal thought in about 5-10 mins. It caters to a half-orcs strengths (strength and melee fighting). I'm sure there are many better or more optimised builds. Ideas spring to mind that I didn't use - use of knockdown, use of the shield slam line of feats, use of charge line of feats, use of the new barbarian class. But as I said, it's a pretty bog-standard fighting half-orc. You will notice that it would do it's job excellently.

http://nwn2db.com/build/?258936

We've had a long discussion on this in the public forum. I disagreed that they needed a buff but I still created a thread in the QC forum to see if there was any interest buffing the half-orc again. QC and any DM's that had their say were unanimously against buffing the half-orc again ... not one person wanted to give it a boost. So that might give you some idea OP.

If you want a half-orc, either build to its strengths and accept it's limitations or don't use them. Easy.

[Young Werther]

A half-orc with 6 monk could pick up imp. Knock down with 6 int.

[Steve]

Because all the other Half-Human races receive the Skilled feat at creation, does it make sense for the Half-Orc to receive as well?

[Hawke]

I agree with Steve. HOrc is still half human, not a watered down orc (Hmmm I like that term).

*shrugs*

And not a dig to the QC team, but just because a group majority says something is good enough, things might not still be true or right. Change should come, to keep the HOrcs from their oppressed racial stats and lack of racial abilities to bring them more in line with the other half blood races.

It was said before, Humans are powerful... Wouldn't their offspring be showing some of that power?

I'm just saying.

[mrm3ntalist]

Hidden: show

Can you give me an example, how your HIGH STR barbarian would be better as a human or dwarf?

Sure thing.

The starting ability scores of my half-orc were:

Code: Select all

STR: 19
DEX: 12
CON: 13 + 1
INT: 14
WIS: 8
CHA: 6

As a human I could easily have:

Code: Select all

STR: 17    or  18     or  17     or  17
DEX: 12    or  12     or  13     or  12
CON: 14    or  14     or  15     or  14
INT: 14    or  14     or  14     or  14
WIS: 8     or  8      or  8      or  10
CHA: 11    or  8      or  8      or  9

A human barbarian would have additional 33 skill points to spare and an additional feat that could be used to grab additional Extend Rage - allowing this character to rage longer. Moreover, even with the slightly reduced strength, I will still acquire Epic Rage on the exact same level.

As a dwarf I could easily have:

Code: Select all

STR: 18    or  17     or  17   
DEX: 12    or  12     or  13     
CON: 16    or  17     or  16    
INT: 14    or  14     or  14  
WIS: 8     or  9      or  10     
CHA: 6     or  6      or  8    

As a dwarven barbarian, I would have additional 30 hitpoints and an additional round of rage duration. Free dwarven waraxe weapon proficiency, and I would have such weapons available to use actually. Then there is that +4 AC against giants... which are still rather common group of mobs on the server.


In both cases, the only thing the half-orc has going on for it is +1 AB and Damage that I would not even notice gone.


But let us drop my half-orc's strength down to 17. Even if I were to drop the half-orcs strength to 17, this situation does not change by much. The dwarf remains the superior choice and although it becomes possible for the half-orc to have 'one or two' points higher base constitution than the human, the human still posses that extra feat and more skill points. Oh wait, as a human I could drop the intelligence and buff up constitution instead, so scratch that.

Finally, if we were to look at alternative class combinations; a dwarf opens a path to the Battlerager PRC, which is +2 AC and free charge feats on top of the fear immunity. The bonus feat human grants could be spent on dodge feat, which as discussed earlier, opens a path to a multitude of PRCs.

So what does half-orc actually offer at the moment? Basically unnoticiable +1 AB and damage per hit? You would need a DM created a monster with a very specific amount of damage reduction for that one point to stand out. Thus the only thing that +2 strength grants to a half-orc is a potential 5% higher chance of knocking someone down with Improved Knockdown - so basically nothing more than a slight advantage between two high strength builds duking it out. (Presuming you are not against an earth genasi, which could pass off as a human being underneath its helmet.)

I guess the above might be the reason why 'orc tribes' only pop up for a few months. Hence, to make most out of the half-orc you are kind of pushed towards the direction of PvP. I am not saying there is anything wrong with half-orc character seeking and creating trouble, it is just that our setting is without something like a hundred-year-war that could act as driving force behind PvP-orientated roleplay. Without any gargantuan factions or nations constantly clashing, without a reason for a 'tribalistic' side picking and hostilities, the PvP-orientated roleplay is basically just for (#2). It grows old fast and the player run 'orc tribes' fade away.

In my opinion, a change to half-orc's racial ability modifiers could help the race be something other than a sporadic nuisance.

I asked for a build not to describe me the starting stats. I can describe the same starting stats from another point of you ie the 19 starting STR you have for orcs, compared to the 16/17 of a human is 2 or 3 epic feats.. Which depending on the builds you can spare on other feats bla bla .... you see where i am getting at. Thats why i asked for a build, so that you can see clearly that a half orc does not miss anything compared to a human on STR AND/OR CON based builds. The +2STR and +1CON make certain of that. It is simple math. If you make your STR and/or CON based melee build, i will make it the same or better for half orcs.

I agree with Steve. HOrc is still half human, not a watered down orc (Hmmm I like that term).

*shrugs*

And not a dig to the QC team, but just because a group majority says something is good enough, things might not still be true or right. Change should come, to keep the HOrcs from their oppressed racial stats and lack of racial abilities to bring them more in line with the other half blood races.

It was said before, Humans are powerful... Wouldn't their offspring be showing some of that power?

By the way, the prcs some races get, have nothing to do with the starting stats of a race

I'm just saying.

1. Half orcs already got buffed compared to their dnd 3.5 - http://alcyius.com/dndtools/races/playe ... index.html

2. With your logic why wood elves get the negatives the get. Why planettouched get the negatives they get?

As you can see there are two views on this. The mechanical one and the one based on logic. The latter can open a can of worms because using logic every race could use a buff. This view is like asses. Everyone has one. Never ever we are all going to agree on this.

The mechanical however, is something you can see - its like maths in a way. If indeed mechanically half orcs were subpar compared to other races then fine, lets buff them. However that is not the case. Half orcs are above average when used on melee builds and obviously they are below average when making DC casters with INT or CHA as their main ability.

[aaron22]

the HOrc makes a good melee build. i am unsure how this keeps getting argued. depending upon what you are building, it is better than the dwarf and elf and comparable to the genasi that is an ECL+1. this is NOT a good starting spot for a INT/CHA based caster.

if you want a unicorn you must fight through the negatives that come from it.