Swashbuckler improvements

[DM Hera]

swasbuckler 12. Rogue 6. Means. 3d6 SA +insightful.

Does this SB ability allow Epic Persion to work on those 3 SA dice? If it does then it is the same ability! Let's stop saying it's not.



This conversation is about giving SB a free epic feat at level 12. Where all other qualifying classes have to pay 2 feats and be level 21.

How is this justified.

The argument is that it's not the same ability but clearly it is the same ability as it still works with SA dice. The argument is that SB needs help against undead and other crit immunes. But so do all the other classes that suffer the same way and you can not just sneak past these threats due to 1. Chests mechanics. 2. Spawns can't transition 3. Area design.


This conversation is about why Swashbucklers are given a Feee Epic feat at level 12.

The only good answer is to improve their quality of life. My stance is we can do this with out giving away an epic feat for free everyone else had to pay for.

[aaron22]

Even with the new editions exactly as mentalist wants them, I still don't see that much advantage in going above 5 in almost every build strategy. I have a build that uses swashy primary with sd and tempest dips. it just looses way to much steam. A full rogue or rogue sin build is so much better imo.

[mrm3ntalist]

swasbuckler 12. Rogue 6. Means. 3d6 SA +insightful.

Does this SB ability allow Epic Persion to work on those 3 SA dice? If it does then it is the same ability! Let's stop saying it's not.

The build you mentioned at your post is what? What should we make of it. If i post rogue18 what does that mean? If i post rogue10/Assassin8, what does that mean?

Yes obviously SB12 will get half damage from any SA dice, against undead. Again someone who plans to make a build based on sneak attack dice, will still go for the classic rogue build. Got to nwn2db.com, click search, put SB in the must have classes and tell me what type of builds you see. And that is for builds getting IS at lvl3 not 5 like bg. Noone who cares about mechanics, will make an SB/SA build in order to take the Epic presicion free at level 12. Noone. Unless of course it is an "RP build"

This conversation is about giving SB a free epic feat at level 12. Where all other qualifying classes have to pay 2 feats and be level 21.

How is this justified.

The argument is that it's not the same ability but clearly it is the same ability as it still works with SA dice. The argument is that SB needs help against undead and other crit immunes. But so do all the other classes that suffer the same way and you can not just sneak past these threats due to 1. Chests mechanics. 2. Spawns can't transition 3. Area design.


This conversation is about why Swashbucklers are given a Feee Epic feat at level 12.

The only good answer is to improve their quality of life. My stance is we can do this with out giving away an epic feat for free everyone else had to pay for.

I really hope there was a way to just rename the feat and clone it.... Out of curiocity, if we give a PRC +1 AC at level 5, are giving them a free epic feat as well? ( Armored skin )

What makes a feat epic for a class is what they get from it in general. You cant compare 2 extra damage SBs get from it with the 30+ SneakAttack builds get.

[Aeb Ankor]

... Off the top of my head, while watching football... Drow, Thiefling, Air Genasi (others may be possible) Base Dex 19 Int 19 Final Dex 25 Int 20

Swash 14: Insightful Strike, Weakening Critical, Luck of Heroes, Swash Dodge, Imp Flank, Mobility, Weapon Finesse, Martial Weapons... Epic Precision

Rogue 13: 7d6 SA, Defensive Roll, Imp Evasion, Trap Finding

NN9 3: +3d6 SA with Frantic Reactions... To avoid Exp penalty or other 3 level dip, or even rogue +2 sb +1

Epic Feats: Epic Dodge, Expose Weakness, Combat Insight, Epic Prowess, Blinding Speed

I'd say that Free Epic Precision is truly EPIC as a bonus at Swash lvl 12! If this is possible, can someone with NwNdb check?

[mrm3ntalist]

... Off the top of mind head... Drow, Thiefling, Air Genasi (others may be possible) Base Dex 19 Int 19 Final Dex 25 Int 20

Swash 14: Insightful Strike, Weakening Critical, Luck of Heroes, Swash Dodge, Imp Flank, Mobility, Weapon Finesse, Martial Weapons... Epic Precision

Rogue 13: 7d6 SA, Defensive Roll, Imp Evasion, Trap Finding

NN9 3: +3d6 SA with Frantic Reactions

Epic Feats: Epic Dodge, Expose Weakness, Combat Insight, Epic Prowess, Blinding Speed

I'd say that Free Epic Precision is truly EPIC as a bonus at Swash lvl 12!

Couldnt one have made a much better build by not taking SB at all? Using your example and without building it, wouldnt a simple rogue16/Fighter14 be better than what you described?

So no, it is not Epic for SBs and any build can be made better without having to take 12 levels of SB.

In any case, If this results in more swashbuckler builds, that why we did it. Unless of course you think it takes away from rogues as well

[BigJ]

Swash 12 / Assassin 10 / Fighter 8

That seems a bit cooler now. High bab, hp, high base damage duel wielder that can now apply high dc death attack to anything whist hip'ing. (Inc crit immune PC's?)

Anyone know if wounding/weakening critical is affected by epic precision? They do not normally work with on crit immune, but might be worth adjusting the build if they do.

BigJ

[mrm3ntalist]

Swash 12 / Assassin 10 / Fighter 8

That seems a bit cooler now. High bab, hp, high base damage duel wielder that can now apply high dc death attack to anything whist hip'ing. (Inc crit immune PC's?)

Anyone know if wounding/weakening critical is affected by epic precision? They do not normally work with on crit immune, but might be worth adjusting the build if they do.

BigJ

It is cooler, isnt it? Would you play such build in the past?

[DM Hera]

Swash 12 / Assassin 10 / Fighter 8

That seems a bit cooler now. High bab, hp, high base damage duel wielder that can now apply high dc death attack to anything whist hip'ing. (Inc crit immune PC's?)

Anyone know if wounding/weakening critical is affected by epic precision? They do not normally work with on crit immune, but might be worth adjusting the build if they do.

BigJ

It is cooler, isnt it? Would you play such build in the past?

Lol. A lot of things are cooler and possible when you give away epic abilities. For what would cost everyone else 2 feats.


Great example of use of Epic Persion in an alternate build at a cheeper rate then the class that had it. The death attack hips was always possible but with a significant loss of AB and AC, and you come out with two extra feats open for other use.

[BigJ]

Swash 12 / Assassin 10 / Fighter 8

That seems a bit cooler now. High bab, hp, high base damage duel wielder that can now apply high dc death attack to anything whist hip'ing. (Inc crit immune PC's?)

Anyone know if wounding/weakening critical is affected by epic precision? They do not normally work with on crit immune, but might be worth adjusting the build if they do.

BigJ

It is cooler, isnt it? Would you play such build in the past?

Not really, I just like the idea of of standing toe to toe with mobs doing min 17 dmg per hit with ptwf, whilst still being able to hips and death attack anything if needed, crit immune or not.

Does epic precision work with Wounding/Weakening critical or do you not know?

Would be a hell of a mage killer, probably

BigJ

[mrm3ntalist]

Swash 12 / Assassin 10 / Fighter 8

That seems a bit cooler now. High bab, hp, high base damage duel wielder that can now apply high dc death attack to anything whist hip'ing. (Inc crit immune PC's?)

Anyone know if wounding/weakening critical is affected by epic precision? They do not normally work with on crit immune, but might be worth adjusting the build if they do.

BigJ

It is cooler, isnt it? Would you play such build in the past?

Lol. A lot of things are cooler and possible when you give away epic abilities. For what would cost everyone else 2 feats.

I know. Dwarven defenders get 4 epic feats, Dervish gets 3, Cavestalker gets two. It is always more fun. That is assuming you are jesting with the above post

Great example of use of Epic Persion in an alternate build at a cheeper rate then the class that had it. The death attack hips was always possible but with a significant loss of AB and AC, and you come out with two extra feats open for other use.

Yes it is a great example of an SB build with more than 5levels of SB. That is what we want to see. Personally i would still go for a SB20/Duelist10 build. I would try to make a custom feat just for SBs at level 20 to support this, but my knowledge of nwn2 scripting is very basic.

What is the problem for you with this build?

[mrm3ntalist]

Does epic precision work with Wounding/Weakening critical or do you not know?

I dont think it does but that might be because those crit immune i tested the feat against, had immunity to ability drain as well. A death ward for example stops those two abilities, crit immune or not.

Would be a hell of a mage killer, probably

Not really

[BigJ]

Does epic precision work with Wounding/Weakening critical or do you not know?

I dont think it does but that might be because those crit immune i tested the feat against, had immunity to ability drain as well. A death ward for example stops those two abilities, crit immune or not.

Would be a hell of a mage killer, probably

Not really

Ahh, shame. Doing that CON damage to an arcane class regardless of crit immune spell or class ability (Yes I'm looking at you, Palemaster's ) would have been cool. Hell even the STR drain in the first round would probably keep them from trying to run. Heh, death attack with STR and CON drain, please make it work

BigJ

[DM Hera]

In the above build, my problem is the giving away of an epic feat that everyone else ((those who had it first)) have to pay for, and the SB dings it first!!!! It's not a cheap cost.


2 feats are a big deal.

[mrm3ntalist]

In the above build, my problem is the giving away of an epic feat that everyone else ((those who had it first)) have to pay for. It's not a cheap cost.


2 feats are a big deal.

These changes have nothing to do with everyone else ( i assume you mean rogues ). I dont think you get it but i wil lsay it again. It has nothing to do with rogues. Its like saying dont give extra AC to a class, because another class got it first...

[DM Hera]

In the above build, my problem is the giving away of an epic feat that everyone else ((those who had it first)) have to pay for. It's not a cheap cost.


2 feats are a big deal.

These changes have nothing to do with everyone else ( i assume you mean rogues ). I dont think you get it but i wil lsay it again. It has nothing to do with rogues. Its like saying dont give extra AC to a class, because another class got it first...

Then let's start give out +4 stat items, +5 weapons. And death ward 1/day.

I get what your doing. I understand. Trust me I do. But your reasons why we do not do the above should apply to this feat as well. I am trying to be fair and consistant.

Trust me i understand your intent and say "hey this helps them and hurts no one". This is just not true. You want this ability. Why not make it not work on SA dice? Just call it Percision. Then again every reason to do this is a reason to allow other classes acess earlier to this.

I also argue for ninja and assisassn who have to wait and do it the expensive way too.


Yes this will get more people to play SB. This was not the way to do it in my view.


We both know we will unlikely to see eye to eye because I'm not accepting of this Epic Feat being given away for free at level 12 to a class that shouldn't have it. You will not accept that there should be given thought to cost of this ability for other classes who need this as essential ability for end game content


Basiclly. You state that SB needs this ability to be content viable, and thus should get the feat for free. I state that other classes also need this feat to be content viabale yet have to pay two feats for it. I hope this shows you my view and the basics of fair and balance I am trying to draw to your attention. I further hope you will consider this issue and perhaps give it thought to addressing in the future.

I know there is no stopping this ability as it is in the update.