Suggestion: Add Mystic Theurge class...

[Valefort]

So you think cutting down on spellslots wouldn't be enough to make a MT that wouldn't be overpowered while being CL 30 in both arcane and divine ? Where would be the issue ?

[BigJ]

So you think cutting down on spellslots wouldn't be enough to make a MT that wouldn't be overpowered while being CL 30 in both arcane and divine ? Where would be the issue ?

The combination of non-dispellable buffs for maximum protection.

(quick list, not complete)

Long duration:
spiderskin - Imp mage armor - grt heroism - spell resistance - shield of faith - Deez's - Conviction (lvl1 vs lvl6 grt resist) - Freedom of Movement - Death Ward - Premonition - Lsser mind blank

Buffs applied from either spellbook re slots / spell lvl.

True seeing - +4 stat buffs - Prot from evil - GMW - Keen / Wpn of Impact - Blindsight - Energy immunity.

Shorter term useful spell combos from both books (Fill in your own, I'm tired ) :

Of course as you don't need to use item slots for anything, you can fill up +spell slot items.

BigJ

[chad878262]

So you think cutting down on spellslots wouldn't be enough to make a MT that wouldn't be overpowered while being CL 30 in both arcane and divine ? Where would be the issue ?

The combination of non-dispellable buffs for maximum protection.

(quick list, not complete)

Long duration:
spiderskin - Imp mage armor - grt heroism - spell resistance - shield of faith - Deez's - Conviction (lvl1 vs lvl6 grt resist) - Freedom of Movement - Death Ward - Premonition - Lsser mind blank

Buffs applied from either spellbook re slots / spell lvl.

True seeing - +4 stat buffs - Prot from evil - GMW - Keen / Wpn of Impact - Blindsight - Energy immunity.

Shorter term useful spell combos from both books (Fill in your own, I'm tired ) :

Of course as you don't need to use item slots for anything, you can fill up +spell slot items.

BigJ

While still not sold on Valefort's suggestion, if you read it the above would not necessarily be a concern. After casting all those buffs the PC wouldn't have many spells left and can't use Divine Power to increase BAB anyway so would be stuck with a whole bunch of buffs, very few spells remaining and a BAB of ~17... I suppose you could make the MT based on using Summons and buffing them then going invisible, but not all of those buffs can be placed on a summon.

I still don't think a MT should be as good a caster as a focused Wizard or Cleric which is why I advocate for a max CL in the primary of ~26-28 and in the secondary of ~19-21 or for the even split max CL in both of ~24.

[Steve]

Wait a minute!

The Mystic Theurge as shown here is so SIMPLE:

Hidden: show

Requirements

Skills: Knowledge (arcana) 6 ranks , Knowledge (religion) 6 ranks

Spells: Able to cast 2nd-level divine spells and 2nd-level arcane spells.

Hit die

d4
Skill points

2 + Int
Class Features

Weapon and Armor Proficiency: Mystic theurges gain no proficiency with any weapon or armor.

Spells per Day: When a new mystic theurge level is gained, the character gains new spells per day as if he had also gained a level in any one arcane spellcasting class he belonged to before he added the prestige class and any one divine spellcasting class he belonged to previously. He does not, however, gain any other benefit a character of that class would have gained (bonus metamagic or item creation feats, bard or assassin abilities, and so on). This essentially means that he adds the level of mystic theurge to the level of whatever other arcane spellcasting class and divine spellcasting class the character has, then determines spells per day and caster level accordingly. For example, a 3rd-level cleric/3rd-level wizard who takes a level in mystic theurge has the same access to spells as a 4th-level cleric and a 4th-level wizard. But he continues to turn undead as a 3rdlevel cleric, and his wizard familiar won’t gain any new abilities. If a character had more than one arcane spellcasting class or more than one divine spellcasting class before he became a mystic theurge, he must decide to which class he adds each level of mystic theurge for the purpose of determining spells per day.

Advancement
Level BAB Fort Ref Will Spells per Day
1st +0 +0 +0 +2 +1 level of existing arcane spellcasting class/+1 level of existing divine spellcasting class
2nd +1 +0 +0 +3 +1 level of existing arcane spellcasting class/+1 level of existing divine spellcasting class
3rd +1 +1 +1 +3 +1 level of existing arcane spellcasting class/+1 level of existing divine spellcasting class
4th +2 +1 +1 +4 +1 level of existing arcane spellcasting class/+1 level of existing divine spellcasting class
5th +2 +1 +1 +4 +1 level of existing arcane spellcasting class/+1 level of existing divine spellcasting class
6th +3 +2 +2 +5 +1 level of existing arcane spellcasting class/+1 level of existing divine spellcasting class
7th +3 +2 +2 +5 +1 level of existing arcane spellcasting class/+1 level of existing divine spellcasting class
8th +4 +2 +2 +6 +1 level of existing arcane spellcasting class/+1 level of existing divine spellcasting class
9th +4 +3 +3 +6 +1 level of existing arcane spellcasting class/+1 level of existing divine spellcasting class
10th +5 +3 +3 +7 +1 level of existing arcane spellcasting class/+1 level of existing divine spellcasting class

So as the above would pertain to current BGTSCC Rules & Regulations™ ( ), a WIZ 10 / Cleric 10 / MT 10 could get a CL of W 24 / C 24. That is plenty weak in the current milieu. I'd even offer, under-balanced. No one in their right mind would play a caster with 24 CL currently, since Dispels would destroy it.

If Spellpowers were hooked into the PrC at even levels, one would still end up with a W 29 / Cleric 29. Even THAT is still 5% Gr. Dispel failure and lunch for a dedicated Arcane spellcaster with Mord's.

Realmshelps gives some added RP value to being a Mystic Theurge:

Hidden: show

General Prestige Class : Mystic Theurge

Blurring the line between divine and arcane, mystic theurges draw power from divine sources and musty tomes alike, While most spellcasters choose one path to magical power, mystic theurges walk two roads at once, simultaneously mastering spells common to clerics and wizards.

Mystic theurges have unparalleled diversity of spells. In time, a mystic theurge can cast almost any spell in the Handbook. While a mystic theurge doesn't have the uninterrupted spell advancement that a cleric, wizard, or sorcerer, he makes up for this with versatility. Mystic theurges are so obsessed with magical lore, traveling to the ends of the earth to learn some new arcane secret or divine insight.

Because a mystic theurge casts both arcane and divine spells, members of this class are multiclass spellcasters. Cleric/sorcerers and cleric/wizards are the most common mystic theurges, with druid/sorcerers more rare and druid/wizards almost unheard of. Mystic theurges tend to be fascinated with magic in whatever form it takes. They're always on the hunt for powerful magic items and new arcane spells. Those mystic theurges who worship a deity use the power of their spellcasting to further their deity's agenda.

So, the MT gains versatility in place of interrupted spell advancement (essentially, you learn spells of higher level slower in build progression).

I saw this mentioned earlier, and any build will either need to split WIS/INT progression, which weakens DCs on both sides, or focus to one Ability progression, and loose all DC power on the other.

I just haven't seen a calculation were Divine Power spell would make this build a super tank or destroyer of worlds, honestly. Even with a AB of 40 after Divine Power, the dmg would be so stupid low, it won't really matter how much you hit a dragon, you're lunch.

Am I missing something here?

[mrm3ntalist]

Wait a minute!

The Mystic Theurge as shown here is so SIMPLE:

Hidden: show

Requirements

Skills: Knowledge (arcana) 6 ranks , Knowledge (religion) 6 ranks

Spells: Able to cast 2nd-level divine spells and 2nd-level arcane spells.

Hit die

d4
Skill points

2 + Int
Class Features

Weapon and Armor Proficiency: Mystic theurges gain no proficiency with any weapon or armor.

Spells per Day: When a new mystic theurge level is gained, the character gains new spells per day as if he had also gained a level in any one arcane spellcasting class he belonged to before he added the prestige class and any one divine spellcasting class he belonged to previously. He does not, however, gain any other benefit a character of that class would have gained (bonus metamagic or item creation feats, bard or assassin abilities, and so on). This essentially means that he adds the level of mystic theurge to the level of whatever other arcane spellcasting class and divine spellcasting class the character has, then determines spells per day and caster level accordingly. For example, a 3rd-level cleric/3rd-level wizard who takes a level in mystic theurge has the same access to spells as a 4th-level cleric and a 4th-level wizard. But he continues to turn undead as a 3rdlevel cleric, and his wizard familiar won’t gain any new abilities. If a character had more than one arcane spellcasting class or more than one divine spellcasting class before he became a mystic theurge, he must decide to which class he adds each level of mystic theurge for the purpose of determining spells per day.

Advancement
Level BAB Fort Ref Will Spells per Day
1st +0 +0 +0 +2 +1 level of existing arcane spellcasting class/+1 level of existing divine spellcasting class
2nd +1 +0 +0 +3 +1 level of existing arcane spellcasting class/+1 level of existing divine spellcasting class
3rd +1 +1 +1 +3 +1 level of existing arcane spellcasting class/+1 level of existing divine spellcasting class
4th +2 +1 +1 +4 +1 level of existing arcane spellcasting class/+1 level of existing divine spellcasting class
5th +2 +1 +1 +4 +1 level of existing arcane spellcasting class/+1 level of existing divine spellcasting class
6th +3 +2 +2 +5 +1 level of existing arcane spellcasting class/+1 level of existing divine spellcasting class
7th +3 +2 +2 +5 +1 level of existing arcane spellcasting class/+1 level of existing divine spellcasting class
8th +4 +2 +2 +6 +1 level of existing arcane spellcasting class/+1 level of existing divine spellcasting class
9th +4 +3 +3 +6 +1 level of existing arcane spellcasting class/+1 level of existing divine spellcasting class
10th +5 +3 +3 +7 +1 level of existing arcane spellcasting class/+1 level of existing divine spellcasting class

So as the above would pertain to current BGTSCC Rules & Regulations™ ( ), a WIZ 10 / Cleric 10 / MT 10 could get a CL of W 24 / C 24. That is plenty weak in the current milieu. I'd even offer, under-balanced.

What about Wiz16/Cleric4/MT10?

I wont touch the other possibilities.

No one in their right mind would play a caster with 24 CL currently, since Dispels would destroy it.

Why would it be destroyed?
GMW, Magic vestment cant be dispelled. Even if they did, low cl builds should not relly just on spells for AC. Having a +4ACRobe equiped means that losing MV, only loses 1AC.

Its a choice to play a dispellable build and one has to be ready for it.

If Spellpowers were hooked into the PrC at even levels, one would still end up with a W 29 / Cleric 29. Even THAT is still 5% Gr. Dispel failure and lunch for a dedicated Arcane spellcaster with Mord's.

Realmshelps gives some added RP value to being a Mystic Theurge:

Hidden: show

General Prestige Class : Mystic Theurge

Blurring the line between divine and arcane, mystic theurges draw power from divine sources and musty tomes alike, While most spellcasters choose one path to magical power, mystic theurges walk two roads at once, simultaneously mastering spells common to clerics and wizards.

Mystic theurges have unparalleled diversity of spells. In time, a mystic theurge can cast almost any spell in the Handbook. While a mystic theurge doesn't have the uninterrupted spell advancement that a cleric, wizard, or sorcerer, he makes up for this with versatility. Mystic theurges are so obsessed with magical lore, traveling to the ends of the earth to learn some new arcane secret or divine insight.

Because a mystic theurge casts both arcane and divine spells, members of this class are multiclass spellcasters. Cleric/sorcerers and cleric/wizards are the most common mystic theurges, with druid/sorcerers more rare and druid/wizards almost unheard of. Mystic theurges tend to be fascinated with magic in whatever form it takes. They're always on the hunt for powerful magic items and new arcane spells. Those mystic theurges who worship a deity use the power of their spellcasting to further their deity's agenda.

So, the MT gains versatility in place of interrupted spell advancement (essentially, you learn spells of higher level slower in build progression).

I saw this mentioned earlier, and any build will either need to split WIS/INT progression, which weakens DCs on both sides, or focus to one Ability progression, and loose all DC power on the other.

I just haven't seen a calculation were Divine Power spell would make this build a super tank or destroyer of worlds, honestly. Even with a AB of 40 after Divine Power, the dmg would be so stupid low, it won't really matter how much you hit a dragon, you're lunch.

Am I missing something here?

Splitting INT/Wis is not that bad. One spellbook/ability can be used for DC spells, the other for no-save/damaging/buffing spells.

[Invoker]

So you think cutting down on spellslots wouldn't be enough to make a MT that wouldn't be overpowered while being CL 30 in both arcane and divine ? Where would be the issue ?

It could easily become a full lvl 30 DC Wizard (full INT), while being more durable than a cleric (16+3 WIS), and having a solid melee presence when needed.

I can guarantee you that if I were to re-install this game, play such a thing and make a video of it, people would scream for blood.

We're talking of a community wanting to delete (lol!) Favored Soul. People that can't live with others having HiPS or Evasion. Any number of non-arcane players voted for Bigbies to be removed from the game (status quo, basically). Dragon Druids are permanently under fire. I can recall threads asking for Bard nerfs. Some even went as far as saying Shadow Adept is OP, recently...

And you want to see this one? That can basically tank more or less like a Dragon Druid (because, on top of its key wards, it would have the one REALLY broken spell in this game, which everyone seems to be OK with because of self-interest: MIRROR IMAGES), but has a better spellbook and can use consumables and epic spells?

Sounds fun!

Splitting INT/Wis is not that bad. One spellbook/ability can be used for DC spells, the other for no-save/damaging/buffing spells.

Absolutely. I would add healing to the bunch.

[Steve]

What about Wiz16/Cleric4/MT10?

I wont touch the other possibilities.

That would be WIZ 30 / Cleric 18 CL. 30 CL still doesn't guarantee a thing against Mord's. Which is why dedicated casters of Art or Power are going for 32 CL or 36 CL. 18 CL of Cleric, how is that worth more than the Buffs that can't be dispelled. Magic Vestment would only give +4 AC, missing out on the cherry of +5 stats when hitting CL 20. But...

Why would it be destroyed?
GMW, Magic vestment cant be dispelled. Even if they did, low cl builds should not relly just on spells for AC. Having a +4ACRobe equiped means that losing MV, only loses 1AC.

Can't, or are not on the Dispel List? Are these spells supposed to not be dispellable, or have just never been put on the Dispel List by Obsidian/NWN2/BGTSCC?

Splitting INT/Wis is not that bad. One spellbook/ability can be used for DC spells, the other for no-save/damaging/buffing spells.

Splitting for 27-29 INT and 16 WIS will leave the build with low Abilities in all the rest. Spells can mitigate those difficensies, but only when buffs. And buffs don't last forever.

I'm surprised that GMW and Magic Vestment are spells that make the basic implementation of MT become over powered. Because in your split as example, half those OP buffs don't go above +4, which is available on items.

Now...maybe you have even more OP master builds in mind, but without you sharing them, I can't cut them down!!!

[Steve]

Something I suggested to M3nt in a PM was that maybe what could help balance out MT would be to create its own Spell Progression chart, which would limit the MT to a total number of spells that can be spent in EITHER the Arcane or Divine spellbook.

Thus, while an MT would have versatility, it would not have double spells of any other caster (more or less).

[chad878262]

The issue with MV / GMW is a bug from Obsidian. Even when dispelled, the AC/AB/Damage stick... It can be added to breach list or whatever, but the issue is not that the buff can't be dispelled, the issue is that when it get's dispelled the bonuses do not go away (until rest).

[Steve]

The issue with MV / GMW is a bug from Obsidian. Even when dispelled, the AC/AB/Damage stick... It can be added to breach list or whatever, but the issue is not that the buff can't be dispelled, the issue is that when it get's dispelled the bonuses do not go away (until rest).

Well dammit! Throw this bugged out game in the frickin' trash can!!!

[mrm3ntalist]

That would be WIZ 30 / Cleric 18 CL. 30 CL still doesn't guarantee a thing against Mord's. Which is why dedicated casters of Art or Power are going for 32 CL or 36 CL. 18 CL of Cleric, how is that worth more than the Buffs that can't be dispelled. Magic Vestment would only give +4 AC, missing out on the cherry of +5 stats when hitting CL 20. But...

I think they go for the extra DC and not protection from mords

Can't, or are not on the Dispel List? Are these spells supposed to not be dispellable, or have just never been put on the Dispel List by Obsidian/NWN2/BGTSCC?

Cant atm. You might get the message GMW is dispelled but not the effects.

Splitting for 27-29 INT and 16 WIS will leave the build with low Abilities in all the rest. Spells can mitigate those difficensies, but only when buffs. And buffs don't last forever.

Is that a problem? At most, current min maxed builds will drop 1dc in order to raise the other ability enough to cast lvl9 spells.

I dont know what you are trying to say by spells dont last forever.

I'm surprised that GMW and Magic Vestment are spells that make the basic implementation of MT become over powered. Because in your split as example, half those OP buffs don't go above +4, which is available on items.

I just used an example. You dont even need those spells. If you have a dispellable build, one should not be 100% relied on buffs. Having a +4AC robes, a +4Nat AC amulet, a +4 deflection AC item, a wizard sorcerer only loses 3AC from dispels, if everything gets dispelled. Wands/items of mirror images, Mantles etc, cover everything else that could be dispelled.

Now...maybe you have even more OP master builds in mind, but without you sharing them, I can't cut them down!!!

The basic implementation of MT has been shot down more times than i can remember. The are many builds that can take advantage of this.

Having dual spellbooks can be very powerful in nwn2.

[Steve]

Having dual spellbooks can be very powerful in nwn2.

That is agreed, I think universally.

But if those spells are either limited in number per rest, or, can be dispelled, then some balance is attained—if you can't maintain your arcane/divine awesomeness for longer than 30 RL minutes, or, must pick n' choose between buffs or attack spells, then the effectiveness of your abilities reaches limits pretty fast.

I see this as the prime difference between casters and melee: a caster has limited nuclear powers, while melee should have less maximum power there, but almost infinite lasting power (all said outside of HP...but that's another issue).

[mrm3ntalist]

But if those spells are either limited in number per rest, or, can be dispelled, then some balance is attained—if you can't maintain your arcane/divine awesomeness for longer than 30 RL minutes, or, must pick n' choose between buffs or attack spells, then the effectiveness of your abilities reaches limits pretty fast.

Why is that? ( the underlined part ). As i explained before, items can mitigate what you lose from spells.

I see this as the prime difference between casters and melee: a caster has limited nuclear powers, while melee should have less maximum power there, but almost infinite lasting power (all said outside of HP...but that's another issue).

A caster can still use the same items a melee can ( for AC, saves, hp ) and use the "nuclear power" when it is actually needed. A less than 30CL build muct use items in order to not relly on buffs.

[Steve]

Being prime buffed for the entirely of a Rest, is what is OP, in my opinion. If your caster/divine MT is vulnerable to Dispels/Mord's, and/or the CL of one class is low and the Duration of spells do not cover the Rest Timer, then the build/Character is drained, and at a weaker power level than a non-caster that usually has items.

So, you argue that a MT can utilize items just like a melee (being a Cleric, natch). But the AB and DMG output is poor. Real poor.

Items can of course mitigate what is lost from spells, but isn't it that casters utilize spell bonus items far more than +4 items? Unless of course you are a Player that has amassed Epic Gear and have items with both!!! lol. Sure, that is an option for the 1%, I guess.

A caster that cannot 95% rely on buffs to last in battle against mobs and especially Bosses, is at a serious disadvantage. That is why Dispel and Mord's exists, right? To be able to humble a caster, unless, the caster has focused either on high CL—thus giving up melee prowess—or is a Counterspeller, which then again, provides you with limited options in any engagement.

Obviously, this is rather irrelevant to discuss further—but not irrelevant in itself—since there are bugs in the dispelling of certain spells...and that issue, if it cannot be fixed, makes this a problem that can't be solved, i.e., balancing MT for inclusion on BGTSCC.

[thids]

We're talking of a community wanting to delete (lol!) Favored Soul. People that can't live with others having HiPS or Evasion. Any number of non-arcane players voted for Bigbies to be removed from the game (status quo, basically). Dragon Druids are permanently under fire. I can recall threads asking for Bard nerfs. Some even went as far as saying Shadow Adept is OP, recently...

People can't live? That's a bit of an overstatement. The only person I remember quitting over mechanical reasons is you