The Bladesinger PRC

[chad878262]

What the??!?#?!@$

Chad (Half-elf Swashbuckler player).

I have neither a Half-elf, nor a Swashbuckler in my roster of PC's... Where exactly do you get this stuff? The closest thing I have to a H-elf SB is a Human Bard...so, yeah, not close...at all. At a minimum that part of your statement is factually incorrect.

Tweaked spellbook (even added Shapechange just for kicks. Does it correctly lose the bonus ac?)
Hidden: hide
It has 66 spells (with a angrays slave collar (0,1,2,3) and wizard ring (1 x 4 level). There are more spell slot items around but those would do for now.

Self Buff (13) Prot Evil, IMA, GMW, Elemental Immune, Sup. Resistance, Grt Stoneskin. Extended: Shield, Bulls, Bear, Cats, Shadow Shield, Grt Heroism, blindsight.
Summon + Buff (5): Gate or Lvl 9 summon, Prot Evil, IMA, Spiderskin, Animalistic Power
Auto Quickened (7): 7 x Lesser Orb Sound (9d8)
Further Quickened (4): 2 x Lesser Orb Sound (9d8), 2 x IGMS (12 x 2d6)
Empowered (11): 7 x Orb of Sound (18d6), 4 x Lesser Orb Sound (9d8)
Maximised (10) : 4 x Orb of Sound (18d6), 5 x IGMS (12 x 2d6), 1 x Lesser Orb Sound (9d8)
Other (16): Assay, 6 x Avasculate, lssr breach, grt breach, 3 x Mirror Image (Auto quick), Ext. Displacement, 2 x Ext Haste, Shapechange.

So we now have the Balor down to 1884hp in 6 rounds, time for those 32 blasting spells that Valefort forgot about.

So you aren't casting Assay, lesser breach, or greater breach? Just 6 rounds of Avasculate? Pretty sure he has decent SR and Fortitude Saves... So unless you are going to cast those Assay and breaches, and reapply your images, displacements, hastes I think you might need more than 6 rounds to get him down to that ~1800... During those 10 rounds he is not going to be sitting idle either, so you might want to consider that. The issue with your statement is you are just assuming the Balor will stand there and attack you the whole time... You are also not considering getting to the Balor, since you can't just walk up to him with no resistance. Will you reach the Balor and still have all of your defenses available? A single greater breach, possibly even lesser could ruin your day, unless you have a backup of every buff spell you need

Perfect for Weapon Master (Already has 4 of the 6 feats required)
Max CL for WM5 is 25, 24 if also using EK. 22 w/ EK and WM7. Have fun getting dispelled. Also, it requires 3 of the requirements for WM (CE, Dodge, WF and Combat Casting are the BS requirements). So now you are using your bonus feat just to qualify prior to 18...So you can't have EK and still qualify for WM by level 15. So I guess W13/WM7/BS10 with CL 23 and BAB 23? Not seeing this as a good build.
Perfect for Swashbuckler for Insight melee damage (+20 INT damage) with option for Epic Precision.
Max CL w/ SB5 is 25, 24 w/ EK. No HiPS, no dispel protection.
Perfect for assassin with bluff skill and free feint feat, plus high DC death attacks (with insight damage), and auto quicken spell avasulate via ability for that first round.
Max CL is 22 w/ BS 10 / A8. Have fun with your one Avasculate, because after that you're toast.

[mrm3ntalist]

Just to Highlight how epicly wrong you are in all your assumptions ( both about predetermined intent and mechanics ) here is what a true blaster ( not a wannabe like your build ) CL35 Sorcerer with mastery of elements and high DCs does to the Balor.



As you can see, avasculate does a total of ZERO damage. Empowered Flame arrow doing cold damage on a CL35 sorcerer does a total of a whooping THREE damage! Unless you find a way to make a blaster with 40+ DCs on blasting spells you stand no chance. Even then it wont be enough.

That is why i say that you dont know what you are talking about. You wont be able to nuke the balor not in 3, but even in 103 minutes. As far as defences go, your build with the state bigby 5 currently is in, you would be lucky to run away safely after three minutes. If you are not an experienced caster player your character will be dead in three minutes.

[matelener]

Few things to clarify regarding the balor because the discussion turned into a complete fantasy:

1) He is immune to Avasculate
2) He is 25% immune to magic damage, 75% to sonic, 100% to fire. Small DR to acid and cold, so with these elements you should deal damage to him.

Having said that, the only way a mage (not gish) can solo the balor would be by bringing dozens if not hundreds of Orb scrolls.

[mrm3ntalist]

Few things to clarify regarding the balor because the discussion turned into a complete fantasy:

1) He is immune to Avasculate
2) He is 25% immune to magic damage, 75% to sonic, 100% to fire. Small DR to acid and cold, so with these elements you should deal damage to him.

Having said that, the only way a mage (not gish) can solo the balor would be by bringing dozens of Orb scrolls.

He has reduction to cold damage as well, as you can see in the screenshot. Even if you bring dozens of orb scrolls( which wont be enough since he is almost always going to make the save talking half damage) would you be able to survive long enough to cast them all when taking into account the state bigby5 is in?

[Steve]

Banishment?!?

[Valefort]

A few things :

Balor has 75% damage reduction against sonic.
Epic mass Heal can't be picked by Arcane spellcasters.

4 - IGMS (2 x Quick (48d6), 2 x Maxed (288) = 455
8 - Sound Orb, 4 x Quick lssr (36d8), 4 x Maxed Norm Orb (576) = 743
6 - 3 x Quick lssr Sound (27d8), 3 x Maxed IGMS (432) = 648
4 - 2 x Quick Lsser Sound (18d8), 2 x Empow Orb of Sound (36d8) = 180
5 - Empower Orb of Sound (90d8) = 626
5 - 1 x lssr Orb Max (72) 4 x Empow Lser Orb Sound (36d8) = 322

= 2974 - 25% = 2230 damage in 19 rounds, following those 1 Assay Assistance and 6 rounds of avasculate.

That is 6+1+1+4+5+1+2+3+2+4+2+2+1 = 34 rounds, not 19 as far as I can tell.

Also there is the problem of dealing with Mordenkainen and you can miss a few RTAs when you cast that many.

So, without trading insults and just using the math, has my lack of knowledge produced a build that can summon, buff and defend, melee less/mid mods, then also nuke the Balor?

No, with such a spellbook you want to go straight to the balor and so would need to use ethereal to get here then manage to lure the Balor away from the other mobs. Meleeing your way through the top would take ages with low AB like that builds has, and you'll be breached and nuked.

1) The Bladesinger PrC can go one on one with the Balor and nuke it in under 3 minutes, maintaining strong defences.

No.

2) Bladesinger is the only purely arcane PrC that gives d8hp.

Uhm yes, so what ? You can go dragonslayer and get d10 hp.

3) Bladesinger is the only PrC (arcane or not) that has a stat based AC bonus (upto +5) that is KEPT in armour

Yes ... so what ? You can't have a shield.

4) Bladesinger is the only wiz/sorc PrC that can cast in armour, for free. (Saving 4 feats, 3 of them epic. Also doesn't need level 9 spells).

Picking the PRC is far from free.

5) Bladesinger is only caster PrC that can use one stat (INT in this case) for: Damage (+10, same as 30 str), AC (+5), spellcasting & bonus spells, all whilst wearing light armour (+6 AC).

Yes. Of course if you focus on INT that much your AB will suffer from it.

6) Bladesinger is the only PrC that can give a level 5/6/7 spellbook with plenty of spells to a strong melee base that casts in armour.

I'm sorry, what ? See all the divine casters, bards, warlocks, auto still mages.

Perfect for Weapon Master (Already has 4 of the 6 feats required)

If you want to have low CL sure, the tradeoff is questionable.

Perfect for Swashbuckler for Insight melee damage (+20 INT damage) with option for Epic Precision.

Epic precision for SB is at 12, once again we're in low CL area.

Perfect for assassin with bluff skill and free feint feat, plus high DC death attacks (with insight damage), and auto quicken spell avasulate via ability for that first round.

Already said how inferior that build was.

Regarding the :

A power PrC suggested by elf players, QC'd by elf players and Dev'd by elf players, for elf players.

I disagree it's a power PRC, also it wasn't QCed only by elf players. A good thing you mentioned shapechange though as I didn't think about it.

[Nachti]

I'd like to overhaul shapechange and polymorph some day.

[dedude]

I'd like Nachti to overhaul shapechange and polymorph some day!

[BigJ]

Important thing first, my apology to Chad as it seems I cross linked his PC's. I said I make mistakes sometimes and that was a doozy. My apologies Chad. I remembered Cranston was a follower of Shevarash (Elven God, hunter/hater of Drow), and must have got Chord Silverstring mixed up with someone else as there is no information about him.

As for the other things you mention, and as to answer some points raised by others I decided list form would be best.

1) I do cast Assay Assistance, it is included in the previous post as the first spell I cast.
2) I do also have Greater Spell Breach listed/available, but the SR decrease doesn't stack so I don't cast it.
3) Orb spells have no saves for damage, nor do IGMS. Orbs spells have no SR check either. Fortitude saves are irrelevant to damage (They are for additional effects, which I didn't include in my math)
4) As previously stated my Mirror Images are auto quickened.
5) My extended displacement and haste last almost 6 minutes, I cast them before I engage the Balor or Pit Fiend.
6) The 6 avasculates were Valeforts calculations, not mine.
7) My defences are listed in the previous post, as is the math. Feel free to counter the math as listed, I am happy to be proven wrong mathematically.
8) We covered the dispels for those builds earlier, there are no buffs to dispel. You apply 'buffs' only as an when you deem necessary.
9) Valefort suggested Ethereal and bait the Balor. I do not know being a UD'er, I do know you can tackle the UD Pit Fiend 1-on-1.

@ M.

1) DM Flamix, first page of this thread. As I stated, it was regarding the OP.
2) A Dragonslayer can nuke the Balor like I described? Please link the build.
3) In the 2 years I have been here I have never had a level 30 PC, highest I have had is 28. Rather than wait for me to level a PC, can't QC do this test now? Or give an experienced player / DM a lvl 30 PC to test with?
4) I never used the phrase 'stupidly overpowered', a DM did about the OP, which it was. I just provided the Math that shows it can nuke the Balor (Or Pit Fiend? Do you have the stats for the Pit Fiend?)

Re your screenshot:

5a) I don't use Flame arrows, they have reflex saves (see above).
5b) You don't have defensive casting enabled, why may I ask?
5c) A builder stated the damage Avasulate does to the Balor, not me. I just asked the question in the thread, and used his response. QC mentioned applying meta magic to Avasulate, if any of this information is wrong refer to staff.
5d) There is no message at all after your RTA hit after avasculate, before your next spell. No immunity message, no SR check, nothing. Did you miss or does this relate to 5c?
5e) I note the Balor only hit you for 21/24/27 damage, with just 1 DR taken away. I thought he would hit harder. That barely gets over my DR.
5f) I'm slightly confused with the Balors rolls. It misses you with rolls of 25 - 51. Yet confirms crit with a roll of 38, doing 47 dmg? I thought threat rolls had to beat AC, or is this unique to BG?
5g) I note you hit with an RTA roll of 26, relevant to later points.

@ Matelener

Welcome to the thread! Extra input is always welcome.

1) See above points re being immune to Avasulate, that is NOT what was said by staff earlier in the thread.
2) The 25% magic immunity was taken into account in the previous post, and deducted.
2) The sonic damage immunity is a new one. That's not on the wiki nor has been mentioned in this thread previously. Is it new? What is the full list of immunities precisely?

As my build is a Wizard not a Sorc, swap the Orb Spells for whatever you want (Flame, Cold, Acid, Sonic, Electricity, Force. No save for damage, no SR.).

@ Valefort

1) Ha! Told you I make mistakes, nwn2db let me take it as it only lists 9th level spells as a requirement. Swap for Vampiric Feast for extra damage?
2) You miscounted the Quickened spells. Actually, so did I. I forgot I reduced them for extra empowered spells, although if I misunderstand how it works I am always happy to learn.
3) The first mords can sometimes be avoided with the summon (take the hit). I don't believe it will have time for a second. I am sure even melee spellcasters have this issue.
4) Miss with RTA? M scored an RTA with 26. I wont miss except with a one, but then I can also crit with a 20 for double damage.
5) Dragonslayer is built for divine (D8/D10), as well as arcane (D4/D6). However, Bladesinger sets new precedent for purely arcane classes, for future reference.
6) I can understand the AB issue against the Balor/Pit Fiend, but Mob AC is lower (Or is in UD). AB 37/38 is good for them, or at least was for me on my meleelock in the Pit Fiend map.
7) Bladesinger has shield spell so that will do for 19 ac (5 + 6 + 4 + 4). Pretty good as it requires no epic feats to obtain, and yet auto-still gives no improvement as 19 as well (8 + 3 + 8), but with a -2AB, so 17ac if you want to avoid that AB hit.
8) Another mistake of mine, it should have read 'wiz/sorc spellbook to a strong melee base'. Of course there are warlocks, bards, etc. You cannot however have autostill mages unless you go for the full level 9 spellbook, Bladesinger is only option without level 9 spells.
9) We had the CL discussion on previous pages, and other threads. You wear items, the spells save you UMD wand costs plus spells you cannot add to wand. You also do not need to max UMD to cast that Mords Scroll. In other words play smart, like an assassin already has to with its own current, small spellbook.
10) We disagree on inferior. It does though allow for a well balanced group of Bladesingers, with their unique lore.

I am surprised I had to clarify the Orb Spells, I thought that was common knowledge.

Can you post the UD Pit Fiend stats / immunities, I know that map better for reference being a UD'er.

Titbit from the Wiki: "Magic immunity is ignored by spells without spell resistance"

Does that mean I mistakenly reduced my total spell damage on my previous post? Ie. I should have only taken 25% off the IGMS spells, not the total damage? That is a big increase in damage if it does.

Depending on what data is accurate re previous staff comments, I still can nuke the Balor according to the math.

BigJ

[chad878262]

Regardless of anything else in your post you just made my day because I didn't think anyone remembered much about Cranston!

I loved RP'ing him, but his personality profile and history, as well as the RP growth during his time on the coast made it difficult for him to make too many connections.

As to testing, I know M3nt and Matelener at a minimum have done a bit and I have created a couple of builds to test out bits and pieces. I have not tested them in battle yet, but I do plan to. I'm not sure if anyone else in QC has had a chance to test them in a fight yet either, but they can post if so.

All of this said, it is probably still a bit of ways off from being release ready as all of us have additional things we are working on, plus our real life responsibilities and (for me at least) having a chance to feed the in game itch and interact with our buddies. Suffice to say that so far other than some minor things here and there it is about as advertised and Valefort did an awesome job putting it together. I still don't see this or any blaster being much a threat to the Balor, but I'll let you know if something happens differently.

[Valefort]

Well you can't because Avasculate doesn't work at all apparently, I didn't know either. Balor doesn't have magic immunity btw, just a damage reduction on magic damage so that part of the calculation was correct, not the orb part because balor also has 75% damage reduction versus sonic damage (and 100% vs fire).

Regarding AB 37/38 is low, 2 attacks will hit and since your damage itself is low it will take aaaages, fight any mob with DR and you'll go AFK. The AB/AC is a trade off, if you want the full INT to AC your AB has to be lower.

[Pajutek]

Any ETA on when the PRC will be available to use?

[Valefort]

Whenever QC will be happy with it, had to correct some small bugs. It should be quick, end of the month seems like a safe bet

[Steve]

But seriously folks, could a Bladesinger cast Banishment on her sword, attack by clicking True Strike, and bat that Balor back to OutsiderLands where it belongs, in order to win? If that is even mechanically possible, would the Balor still drop loot?!?

Why worry about fighting it when you could 1-shot it and still get madz lootz!?!?

[chad878262]

But seriously folks, could a Bladesinger cast Banishment on her sword, attack by clicking True Strike, and bat that Balor back to OutsiderLands where it belongs, in order to win? If that is even mechanically possible, would the Balor still drop loot?!?

Why worry about fighting it when you could 1-shot it and still get madz lootz!?!?

Could a HiPS DC mage cast Banishment for the same effect? The DC would be a lot higher...

I'll test such a thing, but I don't think there is much to be concerned about. The BladeSinger can't afford to use feats to pump DC and at least SOME consideration must be given to STR or DEX to actually HIT the Balor for that charged weapon to fire.