10 level PRCs with their own spellbooks - caster levels

[Calodan]

For example those caster level 30 Divine Power potions, a single potion lasts for 3 minutes. A stack of ten lasts for about 30 minutes - while regular adventuring can easily take hours.

You do not need DP that much on this server. While one of the most useful spells out there the duration makes it a gold consumer. The single use of 3 minutes for a boss fight sounds about right though. One of those potions on a FB/WM with a bless wand could in theory make them kill the balor. If you can kill the balor you can kill everything on the server save the white dragon. Just saying the hardest boss to solo is that guy. He is very unique in the approach. Also you have to be wary of the vorpal blade he is wielding! HA HA!

[chad878262]

Most are in agreement that the cost for wands is about right... The base there being 750 which equates to 15 gp / use base. Lowering Potions to be equal or less than the cost of wands does not make sense as they require no UMD to use and have the advantage (with Master Alchemist) of being crafted up to level 7 spells. Scrolls at 10 gp base are less than wands / use and have the advantage of going up to level 9 spells.

In addition, while you could argue it should be lower, my thought is this is already reducing the scrolls by more than half (currently base 25 gp going down to 10) and with Master Alchemist Potions brewing will also be less than half (50 down to 20) so I would hesitate to support going any further than that (and I have a level 22 Master Alchemist/Crafter Wizard...) Consumables should carry a cost, it's just that right now the cost is far higher than what you generally will get from using them. Making them too inexpensive cheapens the whole idea of the power you are getting out of them, but the idea of consumables should always be you have to spend money to make money. So they should at least be reduced to where there is at least some consideration for players to be willing to purchase them.

In your example, I would argue that it should take time... You perhaps should not be able to get 50 such CL30 potions in 30 seconds of effort. However, a STR domain Cleric could craft a whole bunch of those potions by using 3rd, 4th and 5th level slots to do so. Using any example though, I have had (rarely) orders for 10+ potions and was able to fill them all in game without a later meet up. You can still rest every 15-20 minutes so depending on the spell level and using metamagic you can often still craft 10 or more potions in one rest, once you know what the player wants you to brew.

I would argue DP does little for most Weapon Master Builds as they already have BAB of ~29 (assuming Rogue dip). Divine Power would equate to +2 STR, +1 BAB so effectively +2 to hit, +1 damage over what you could get from Bulls Strength, which can be crafted to a wand and lasts for 15 minutes (and would be far cheaper than a bunch of CL30 DP potions.) Comparing apples to apples, if you are worried about dispels a Bulls STR potion vs. Divine Power potion at CL 30 from a STR Domain Cleric looks like this:

Bulls STR: 35(base) x 1 (SL-STR domain) x 30 (CL) = 1,050 per potion, lasts 30 minutes.
Divine Power: 35 (base) x 3 (SL-STR domain) x 30 (CL) = 3,150 per potion, lasts 3 minutes.

Now, if the cost were lowered to 20 gp base for master alchemist, the Bulls STR potion would be 600 gp and the Divine Power would be 1,800 gold... Just as a further example of the impact of lowering the base cost for potion brewing.

[Calodan]

Most are in agreement that the cost for wands is about right... The base there being 750 which equates to 15 gp / use base. Lowering Potions to be equal or less than the cost of wands does not make sense as they require no UMD to use and have the advantage (with Master Alchemist) of being crafted up to level 7 spells. Scrolls at 10 gp base are less than wands / use and have the advantage of going up to level 9 spells.

In addition, while you could argue it should be lower, my thought is this is already reducing the scrolls by more than half (currently base 25 gp going down to 10) and with Master Alchemist Potions brewing will also be less than half (50 down to 20) so I would hesitate to support going any further than that (and I have a level 22 Master Alchemist/Crafter Wizard...) Consumables should carry a cost, it's just that right now the cost is far higher than what you generally will get from using them. Making them too inexpensive cheapens the whole idea of the power you are getting out of them, but the idea of consumables should always be you have to spend money to make money. So they should at least be reduced to where there is at least some consideration for players to be willing to purchase them.

In your example, I would argue that it should take time... You perhaps should not be able to get 50 such CL30 potions in 30 seconds of effort. However, a STR domain Cleric could craft a whole bunch of those potions by using 3rd, 4th and 5th level slots to do so. Using any example though, I have had (rarely) orders for 10+ potions and was able to fill them all in game without a later meet up. You can still rest every 15-20 minutes so depending on the spell level and using metamagic you can often still craft 10 or more potions in one rest, once you know what the player wants you to brew.

I would argue DP does little for most Weapon Master Builds as they already have BAB of ~29 (assuming Rogue dip). Divine Power would equate to +2 STR, +1 BAB so effectively +2 to hit, +1 damage over what you could get from Bulls Strength, which can be crafted to a wand and lasts for 15 minutes (and would be far cheaper than a bunch of CL30 DP potions.) Comparing apples to apples, if you are worried about dispels a Bulls STR potion vs. Divine Power potion at CL 30 from a STR Domain Cleric looks like this:

Bulls STR: 35(base) x 1 (SL-STR domain) x 30 (CL) = 1,050 per potion, lasts 30 minutes.
Divine Power: 35 (base) x 3 (SL-STR domain) x 30 (CL) = 3,150 per potion, lasts 3 minutes.

Now, if the cost were lowered to 20 gp base for master alchemist, the Bulls STR potion would be 600 gp and the Divine Power would be 1,800 gold... Just as a further example of the impact of lowering the base cost for potion brewing.

Good point so a DP potion far more effective for a Arcane GISH or Sneaky type build with LOW AB. So my statement is still true but not for the build I stated.....that build benefits far more from AC Pots that grant AC over what they have since they are two handed and no shield.

[chad878262]

Good point so a DP potion far more effective for a Arcane GISH or Sneaky type build with LOW AB. So my statement is still true but not for the build I stated.....that build benefits far more from AC Pots that grant AC over what they have since they are two handed and no shield.

Yep, WM builds would want (if we are talking about CL30 Pots):
Shield
Shield of Faith (+5 Deflection)
IMA
Barkskin/Spiderskin/Shadow Shield (+5 Natural Armor, but Shadow Shield also gives 10 DR and Immunity to Negative Energy, Instant Death effects and Necromancy spells...However, it is exceedingly expensive)
Mirror Images
Displacement (only 3 minutes, but useful for boss fight)
Deathward
Superior Resistance
Greater Heroism
Spell Resistance
etc.

Basically anything that improves AC, Saves or otherwise protects them is solid. However, one should not overlook more offensive oriented stuff like Flame Blade, Gr. Heroism, Bless, Aid, etc. All of these are minute/level so CL30 gives them 30 minutes of these instead of only 2-3 minutes (more for Gr. Heroism). All of these can be fantastic if you plan ahead and know what area you are going to take on... If you have a Cleric Master Alchemist you know you can get some great stuff like Spell Resistance and Shield of Faith...Druid could give you CL30 Tortoise Shell, Flame Blade, Owl's Insight (I'm not sure, but this one might be capped similar to GMW and Deez's Repulsive Shadow Barrier), etc... Arcane can provide a litany of options. As I said, there is some really strong stuff you can do with these potions. Unfortunately the cost is so prohibitive that for the vast majority of players it just doesn't make sense. The current pricing for potions at CL30 looks like this:

Spell Level

Cost

base 20 gp (MA)

1

1,050

600

2

2,100

1,200

3

3,150

1,800

4

4,200

2,400

5

5,250

3,000

6

6,300

3,600

7

7,350

4,200

So even for minute/level or higher durations, anything above level 4 is costing you more than you will get from the top boss drops unless you get lucky. This makes most players consider CL30 potions a luxury that can't be afforded. As you can see, making the reduction from 50 gp/35 for MA down to 30 gp/20 for MA would not make CL30 potions 'affordable' by any means, but some players may consider buying stacks of CL30 Bless potions for ~8,000 gold, since each will last 30 minutes... Certainly potions like Gr. Heroism will be strongly considered, whereas right now there is no way (6,300 gold each vs. 3,600). I think it strikes the 'right' balance... The 'standard' CL potions will still cost more than what you can get from a vendor in most cases, though in some cases you might be able to craft a potion for slightly less (CL5 Shield potion would cost ~106gp with the magic potion bottle which is less than the vendor sells them for unless you have good appraise), but you won't be able to sell those potions to vendors for a profit so I see no issue.

EDIT: I suck at tables.

[Calodan]

Good point so a DP potion far more effective for a Arcane GISH or Sneaky type build with LOW AB. So my statement is still true but not for the build I stated.....that build benefits far more from AC Pots that grant AC over what they have since they are two handed and no shield.

Yep, WM builds would want (if we are talking about CL30 Pots):
Shield
Shield of Faith (+5 Deflection)
IMA
Barkskin/Spiderskin/Shadow Shield (+5 Natural Armor, but Shadow Shield also gives 10 DR and Immunity to Negative Energy, Instant Death effects and Necromancy spells...However, it is exceedingly expensive)
Mirror Images
Displacement (only 3 minutes, but useful for boss fight)
Deathward
Superior Resistance
Greater Heroism
Spell Resistance
etc.

Basically anything that improves AC, Saves or otherwise protects them is solid. However, one should not overlook more offensive oriented stuff like Flame Blade, Gr. Heroism, Bless, Aid, etc. All of these are minute/level so CL30 gives them 30 minutes of these instead of only 2-3 minutes (more for Gr. Heroism). All of these can be fantastic if you plan ahead and know what area you are going to take on... If you have a Cleric Master Alchemist you know you can get some great stuff like Spell Resistance and Shield of Faith...Druid could give you CL30 Tortoise Shell, Flame Blade, Owl's Insight (I'm not sure, but this one might be capped similar to GMW and Deez's Repulsive Shadow Barrier), etc... Arcane can provide a litany of options. As I said, there is some really strong stuff you can do with these potions. Unfortunately the cost is so prohibitive that for the vast majority of players it just doesn't make sense. The current pricing for potions at CL30 looks like this:

Spell Level

Cost

base 20 gp (MA)

1

1,050

600

2

2,100

1,200

3

3,150

1,800

4

4,200

2,400

5

5,250

3,000

6

6,300

3,600

7

7,350

4,200

So even for minute/level or higher durations, anything above level 4 is costing you more than you will get from the top boss drops unless you get lucky. This makes most players consider CL30 potions a luxury that can't be afforded. As you can see, making the reduction from 50 gp/35 for MA down to 30 gp/20 for MA would not make CL30 potions 'affordable' by any means, but some players may consider buying stacks of CL30 Bless potions for ~8,000 gold, since each will last 30 minutes... Certainly potions like Gr. Heroism will be strongly considered, whereas right now there is no way (6,300 gold each vs. 3,600). I think it strikes the 'right' balance... The 'standard' CL potions will still cost more than what you can get from a vendor in most cases, though in some cases you might be able to craft a potion for slightly less (CL5 Shield potion would cost ~106gp with the magic potion bottle which is less than the vendor sells them for unless you have good appraise), but you won't be able to sell those potions to vendors for a profit so I see no issue.

EDIT: I suck at tables.

Well that is the problem a lot of players have with the scroll, wand and POT system in general though. Just too damned expensive to use to make a build viable and earn gold for the epic gear that is sold. It is very restrictive to gameplay in general. I mean unless you have endless gold anyway and just use that stuff to solo places for that one EPIC DROP from the RIG then really it is so useless it is not even a novelty most times.

So while I agree UMD is great for certain things yes the cost makes it useless in turn. I use it for KOry but Kory can make money without it. I only use it when I want to do DM events or the occasional certain bosses for a RIG drop that is not happening anymore at all. Bosses are only dropping their gold almost every time for me now...which is some BS. I am about to sit and grind the frost king just to take screen shots of the crap that it is. Just not cool anymore. RIG drops are even lower these days. No point to even playing when not leveling or a DM is not on really......

[chad878262]

well...there is always player to player RP, but in general all I can say is it sounds like a string of bad luck as no one has touched the RIG system at all to my knowledge... Only the chest system was adjusted and that was in the players favor vs. making things worse. RIG is exactly the same as it has been at least since I started.

[Sun Wukong]

EDIT: I suck at tables.

Yes you do. What I recommend is using the "[ code ][ /code ]" to make simple lists instead of the table commands. It makes it so that every character is the same size, so you just need to hit preview and add space bars as needed. When you get the desirered 'layout' you just copy and paste the row and then adjust the numbers.

Example:

Code: Select all

Spell Level      Cost            Base 20 GP (MA)
1                1,050             600
2                2,100           1,200
3                3,150           1,800
4                4,200           2,400
5                5,250           3,000
6                6,300           3,600
7                7,350           4,200

Anyhow, to push this topic back onto the actual topic.

So, another suggestion of how Assassins and Blackgaurds could get 30 caster levels.

Two custom feats per PRC. "Improved Assassin Spellcasting I and II" and "Improved Blackguard Spellcasting I and II"

Improved Assassin Spellcasting I:
Requirements: 1 level of Assassin
- Each level of Assassin you posses now gives 2 caster levels up to your current HD.

Improved Assassin Spellcasting II:
Requirements: 1 level of Assassin, Improved Assassin Spellcasting I
- Each level of Assassin you posses now gives 3 caster levels up to your current HD.

Improved Blackguard Spellcasting I:
Requirements: 1 level of Blackguard
- Each level of Blackguard you posses now gives 2 caster levels up to your current HD.

Improved Blackguard Spellcasting II:
Requirements: 1 level of Blackguard, Improved Blackguard Spellcasting I
- Each level of Blackguard you posses now gives 3 caster levels up to your current HD.

Thus, someone with ten levels of Assassin/Blacguard could get caster level 30 with their spells if they get both feats. Four feats if we have some kind of Assassin 10/Blackguard 10.

Thoughts?

[chad878262]

Based on past discussions QC side as well as in the general forums my guess would be this wouldn't be well received. There have been discussions about feats such as spell girding in epics to add 1 or 2 caster levels for arcane gish types which were turned down as well as various suggestions for Assassin/Blackguard.

With regard to Blackguard, I haven't tested it yet, but the future release for DreadMaster I believe is supposed to allow and advance BG Spell casting, so with that in place you would be able to get CL24 with PSC... A long time ago (before I was in QC) there was an 'Epic Assassin' PRC that allows 10 more levels of Assassin progression (though I don't believe it improved death attack DC, for balance reasons) which would do the same thing for Assassin if it were released. However, for the Assassin PRC I think it was dependent on Rasaels new spell system that never went in, which is unfortunate because Assassin and BG got true spell books which were pretty solid IMO. As it stands my guess is the only way to further improve their casting is by adding PRC's in the future that advance Assassin/BG Caster levels/progression.

[aaron22]

something like dread commando to progress sin spell level would be in line. its only 5 level prc, but 19 is better than 14.

[Sun Wukong]

With regard to Blackguard, I haven't tested it yet, but the future release for DreadMaster I believe is supposed to allow and advance BG Spell casting, so with that in place you would be able to get CL24 with PSC... A long time ago (before I was in QC) there was an 'Epic Assassin' PRC that allows 10 more levels of Assassin progression (though I don't believe it improved death attack DC, for balance reasons) which would do the same thing for Assassin if it were released. However, for the Assassin PRC I think it was dependent on Rasaels new spell system that never went in, which is unfortunate because Assassin and BG got true spell books which were pretty solid IMO. As it stands my guess is the only way to further improve their casting is by adding PRC's in the future that advance Assassin/BG Caster levels/progression.

Yeah, the assassin spellbook had the same reserve/arrow/spells that ranges currently have. Those would have added quite a bit of fun for stock assassins.

But you know what they say on this server, nothing ever changes around here without some persistent whining!

[Akroma666]

But you know what they say on this server, nothing ever changes around here without some persistent whining!

Can confirm, still doesn't work

[zoroastor]

Based on past discussions QC side as well as in the general forums my guess would be this wouldn't be well received. There have been discussions about feats such as spell girding in epics to add 1 or 2 caster levels for arcane gish types which were turned down as well as various suggestions for Assassin/Blackguard.

With regard to Blackguard, I haven't tested it yet, but the future release for DreadMaster I believe is supposed to allow and advance BG Spell casting, so with that in place you would be able to get CL24 with PSC... A long time ago (before I was in QC) there was an 'Epic Assassin' PRC that allows 10 more levels of Assassin progression (though I don't believe it improved death attack DC, for balance reasons) which would do the same thing for Assassin if it were released. However, for the Assassin PRC I think it was dependent on Rasaels new spell system that never went in, which is unfortunate because Assassin and BG got true spell books which were pretty solid IMO. As it stands my guess is the only way to further improve their casting is by adding PRC's in the future that advance Assassin/BG Caster levels/progression.

A little off topic,
Whatever by the way happened with the new spell system? I know I was mostly following it on the vault, and from my playing around it appeared to be quite solid, a little confused as to whey it never ended up in.

[Calodan]

But you know what they say on this server, nothing ever changes around here without some persistent whining!

Can confirm, still doesn't work

Does not work with buffs to classes to be honest. If you want to whine yourself a NERF. By all means that will be listened too.

However if you present logical argument and implementation it does work for certain things if the server peeps in charge find it to be a good thing for all and promote play on the server.

IE buff to Barbs and re-structure for viability to the rage choices making each type useful in its own way, full party looting on chests now, bump to RP XP received when in groups, ( I hate this one but if you are willing) Plethora of new quests added in the UpD for both UD and Surfacer to do; Which in turn allows for faster epic leveling if you spend the time each week, Like doing surface quests one day and UpD quests the next. UD could do both and take the same time Surface does to do their surface quests. Armor changes to make all armors that were pretty much fodder useful now, Weapon changes to some weapons to make them more useful in their design. Martial Blunt weapons getting X3 Crit modifiers, Halberd DMG Die changed to 1d12 and Spear to 1d10. UpD area now has chests and corpses to loot in probably the best grind spot from level 10-18 for ANY PC (Seriously there is a bunch of things to loot in that one little area just outside Kro's and in Kro's) I am still missing more I am sure but that is just a few things that were put in lately. Many of those were not whined for at all. They were presented with logic, reason and implementation.