Northlander Hewing Gish

[Sun Wukong]

Currently, Northlander Hewing halves the number of attacks you get from BAB rounded down. Thus, a Gish using NH with 20 or 21 BAB will get just two attacks per round, three with haste.

Thus, what kind of strength based gish builds would you make that get just 16-20 BAB? I am kind of wondering about a Sorcerer 10/Dragonslayer 10/Archmage 10... But what can you come up with?

[Steve]

NH isn't of value on any Toon that has few variables to damage. Essentially it wants to use a large, 1d12 weapon . I think Athkatkan Triparate is better: AC and DMG.

[Sun Wukong]

High Strength modifier is not a variable, hence the request for a strength based gish, and as for variables, any 1d12 weapon you stumble is just one spell away from being +5.

[chad878262]

Oh there are many builds that would be great if not for that pesky need to hit 21 BAB... A few examples:

W6/PM10/EK10/BM4

W5/PM10/DS9/AM6

S7/C3/BM10/EK10

Basically it allows you to not build around having both EK and DS so you can focus on getting higher Caster level or other benefits. PaleMaster is the one I see as giving the most benefit since even with no wards you will be much more beefy.

[Steve]

But that is exactly the thing:

http://bgtscc.wikia.com/wiki/Northlander_Hewing

You limit yourself to half your attacks each round but do maximum damage with the remaining attacks. You add your strength modifier as extra bludgeoning damage. Due to the strength you must put behind your blows you suffer an attack bonus and dodge AC penalty of 2.

What will your Gish's STR be? For giggles, let's say it is 24 nat. and 28 w/ Bull's = +9 mod. 2-handed and w/ NH and a 1d12 weapon + 5 EB = 39 dmg. 2 x round = 78. 3 x round = 117. If you hit. You may gain +5 from the EB doubling as well, if that bug isn't fixed.

What is your expected AB? 35? 42? 48 w/ Tenser's?

If you took Improved Power Attack and went for a higher BAB, you can reach 140 dmg per round with 42 AB (using Tenser's; 37 without).

It's a fun Feat, but it was made to not be better than what already exists.

[Marathados]

Am I wrong or does Northlander Hewing at BAB 21 not provide 3 attacks, 4 attacks with haste?

[Sun Wukong]

You may gain +5 from the EB doubling as well, if that bug isn't fixed.

I do not think that is a bug. I think it was also listed on the massive news tab update mentioned here. If you go to the newstab in game, we got a mention of it at Valefort ( r336 ).

Anyhow;
12 (Greataxe, Greatsword, etc...)
+ 13 (Strength of 28)
+ 5 (Greater Magic Weapon)
+ 14 (Northlander Hewing) = 44

44*3 = 132

(With Monkey Grip and shield: 40, 40*3 = 120)

As for AB, I do not have any specific build in my mind, but let us assume we use the lowest possible qualifying BAB, 16.

16 (BAB)
+ 9 (Strength)
+ 4 (GReater Heroism)
+ 5 (Greater Magic Weapon)
+ 1 (Haste)
- 2 (Northlander Hewing)
= 33 (31 With Monkey Grip, and +12 to both with Tenser's)

So let us consider that BAB of 20, as acquired by W6/PM10/EK10/BM4:
20 (BAB)
+ 9 (Strength)
+ 4 (GReater Heroism)
+ 5 (Greater Magic Weapon)
+ 1 (Haste)
- 2 (Northlander Hewing)
= 37 (35 With Monkey Grip, and +10 to both with Tenser's)

It's a fun Feat, but it was made to not be better than what already exists.

As you said before, you can get more damage from Improved Power Attack, but I think there is a case to actually use it.

For example: Wizard 10/Barbarian 3 (Standard Rage)/Eldritch Knight 7/Red Wizard of Thay 10, who had a little bit too long 'visit' among the Rashemi barbarians and he went a little bit native because of it...

Or how about a Wizard 10/Barbarian 3 (Standard Rage)/Eldritch Knight 7/Frostmage 10 - to make more out of those no save Orb, Storm, and Ray spells?

[Sun Wukong]

Am I wrong or does Northlander Hewing at BAB 21 not provide 3 attacks, 4 attacks with haste?

Previously it did, but after the latest patch it no longer does. For example a character with BAB of 25 only gets 2 attacks per round. At BAB 26, he gets 3. Haste still gives +1 attack no matter what.

[Valefort]

It's just total number of attacks /2, rounded down.

[Steve]

You can show the numbers, but...it still doesn't change the situation in that most custom melee/combat feats are equal or less than what came before.

They allow you to do little things differently, for what I can label as flavor, and that is a great thing! Keeps a Player interested!

But there is a Standard—probably hidden from most—that dictates the efficiency/power of Custom additions.

That said: maybe Northander Hewing should be combined with a Divine caster? That is truly wherein the power lies, these days.

[dedude]

I wouldn't use it unless I had strong RP reasons for it.

[Sun Wukong]

It's just total number of attacks /2, rounded down.

Not at the moment. It is 'total number of attacks'/2, rounded down, + additional attack from haste.

Anyhow, since you are here, care to clarify if getting the weapon EB as extra damage on top of your strength modifier is still a feature, or rather a bug?

You can show the numbers, but...it still doesn't change the situation in that most custom melee/combat feats are equal or less than what came before.

There is a big flaw with Northlander Hewing and that is Concealment. You absolutely must get Blindfight and that is simply due to the limited number of attacks you get with it active. Many caster mobs have access to some spell that grants concealment, and few mobs even come with a static amount of it. Sure, you can live without the Blindfight feat as there are areas where you will face no concealment, but in my opinion Blindfight is worth even an epic feat.

You know, on my halfing barbarian/dragonslayer I was planning on going for 40 strength, but now I will settle down for 38. And I'll spend the two last epic feats to get Blindfight and something else, like Epic Prowess or another Extend Rage feat.

That said: maybe Northander Hewing should be combined with a Divine caster? That is truly wherein the power lies, these days.

Paladins have access to +8 Strength, and some of their kits play out rather nicely with it. As for other Divine Casters, they do have bunch of variable damage that is not doubled. For example any cleric or druid can simply pool up the extra damage per hit from their respective spell lists, and thus they actually want to have as many attacks as possible.

Which is why I am now talking about these 16-to-20+ BAB arcane gishes. They have the haste spell to get 3 attacks with Northlander Hewing, well, at least currently. There is a chance to make builds that wouldn't have made much sense before. After all, 26 levels of low BAB progression with 4 levels of high BAB progression easily ends up at 17 BAB. If you go for a build such as Sorcerer 6/Arcane Scholar 10/Archmage 10/Divine Champion 4, you could actually have Automatic: Quicken Spell III on a sorcerer gish - to buff up and throw some damage faster. As for downsides, to get your PRCs you need to spend 6 feats on requirements, you have no armor to wear, and you are rather squishy when it comes to hipoints. But on the other hand again, in my opinion, you would be rather close to role-playing someone like Gandalf. If the need be, you would whack people with your staff, and shout how things shall not pass - and with spells like Death Armor and Elemental Shield that lowish AC might not be so terrible after all.

Anyhow, I kind of hope that Northlander Hewing stays as it is currently.

[Marathados]

Am I wrong or does Northlander Hewing at BAB 21 not provide 3 attacks, 4 attacks with haste?

Previously it did, but after the latest patch it no longer does. For example a character with BAB of 25 only gets 2 attacks per round. At BAB 26, he gets 3. Haste still gives +1 attack no matter what.

That is a bummer as I not too long ago decided against PA and for NH on my arcane gish...

[Sun Wukong]

It is not the end of the world though.

[Valefort]

It's total number of attacks, bonus one from haste included, divided by 2, rounded down. And EB stacking with STR is meant to stay yes otherwise the EB of the weapon is completely ignored, overidden.