Mornling lord of Lathander

[Sun Wukong]

Obviously, Hierophant was designed and tested and promoted by Karond...the preeminent power builder of BGTSCC!!!

But try to remember how things were back then. Beyond that dip of Blackguard and Warpriest you really had no notable caster cleric option, and thus there was this constant stream of requests for divine PRCs and some new spells - most of which were clearly 'OP' on the hands of EDM Favored Souls.

Now, I think one of Karond's earlier designs had it actually cost spell slots just like the Archmage Does... If that had stayed, I have no doubts that the same lot of people would have continued to chime on about how the Arcanes have so many other PRCs to go for and how they only have a divine archmage... Why not also add some 'divine scholar of candlekeep' or who knows what else. The requests and demands would have gone on and on, and on, until everyone involved cannot help but to be just openly hostile to one and the other.

Thus think of Hierophant as a PRC that gives little bit of everything so that pretty much everyone can be happy about it. Now, if you want something, Hierophant probably can offer it. I mean, when was the last time someone actually asked for new spells, or PRCs for the divine casters after Hierophant went in? You know, as it is, it has created some peace and quit.

[Steve]

The Hierophant PRC changed that and put DC clerics back on the map.

Does that need Turning progression as well?

Care was taken to avoid powerbuilds like no multiclassing with FS.

Does that make super-all-in-one progression for Clerics, then valid? Like, granting Turning? I very much like that a PrC was built to benefit DC Clerics. Why are DC Clerics also getting added benefits?!?

Now instead of comparing diviners with arcane casters who not only are different but the latter get a ton of PRCs and feats and basically can do everything just let us know what is so OP with this PRC. OP as in it breaks things.

Having all pluses and no real negatives, breaks any kind of idea of a Standard that one can look at and apply to BGTSCC Content.

Hierophant makes Clerics better in every possible way. It can make DC Druids/SS very powerful, but I'm not nor did I say, it breaks something. OP stands for Over Powered. Not "it breaks the game." That would be IBTG. At least that rhymes though!!

In my opinion, for what it matters, Hierophant gives enough to Clerics to put them on par with Favored Souls, Bards, Druids. I guess I perceive a trend to make things more powerful, either through gifts in PrCs, or, be a general lowering of Requirements for other PrCs and Base Classes.

Would you, M3nt, or any one else, actually not say that Hierophant is the best Cleric PrC out there, maybe one of the best PrCs on BGTSCC?

[chad878262]

Looses 3 epic feats and many domain powers only improve with cleric levels. It's not as if they give up nothing over a pure cleric.

[Blackman D]

Well, not years ago... I remeber one dedicated Turn Undead cleric just rounding mobs of mid-high level undeads to just blast them off with Turn Undead. Didn't need those spells.

you can not destroy any undead that is 16+ HD with a turn because the max turn level is only 31, so max destruction HD is 15 which is only the fields of the dead or lower

so mid level yes, high level no

It was always my understanding that a DC Cleric/FvS or Arcanist throwing Sunbeams/Sunbursts will always be superior in killing undead in masses than any turner.

maybe before the epic mobs got steroids added to their saves but then again RWs were doing that also which is why the saves got beefed up

but the epic undead have plenty of HP and will likely save over half the time depending on what your DC is since their saves are in the mid to high 20s now

so depending on how many spells to can use i suppose you might be able to gather up an entire floor and blast them down and probably only have to deal with less than half if you get all of them in the aoe or not, but you are also talking about having to survive long enough to do it

[Sun Wukong]

you can not destroy any undead that is 16+ HD with a turn because the max turn level is only 31, so max destruction HD is 15 which is only the fields of the dead or lower

That place used to spawn with a lot more undead, and those used to give a lot more experience, and they didn't have that many HD initially either....

[Steve]

Looses 3 epic feats and many domain powers only improve with cleric levels. It's not as if they give up nothing over a pure cleric.

What Domain powers only improve with Cleric Levels? Oh, you mean Divine Protection and Divine Strength? A point, but a minor one that is more made because you can, than because it has any greater effect over actually choosing Hierophant.

3 epic feats are no big deal when you get 5 epic-like feats via Hierophant. Unless, of course, you think the Hierophant PrC Feat List is less-than-Epic, overall, or in part.

Basically, Cleric 20 / Hierophant 10 > Cleric 30. You'd be self-nerfing your Build by choosing otherwise.

[chad878262]

Those 3 bonus feats mean you can get the same DC you get from taking spell power, other than the occasional time when you roll high enough to get to CL35...though you also get the bonus spells from the couple extra points of WIS. You still have an additional bonus epic feat you can spend to get an Epic Spell as well. Vampiric Feast, Epic Mass Heal, Greater Ruin, whatever...

Regardless, it is not as if a Cleric/Hierophant can do all that much a pure Cleric can't, they can just get some fun extra powers to do extra damage or gain CL30 while taking more levels of Monk/Sacred Fist or Blackguard/War Priest or whatever else. It is not like Hierophant suddenly makes Cleric able to solo the white dragon any more than a pure cleric could.

[Sun Wukong]

What Domain powers only improve with Cleric Levels? Oh, you mean Divine Protection and Divine Strength? A point, but a minor one that is more made because you can, than because it has any greater effect over actually choosing Hierophant.

Since you asked...

Animal Domain - animal companion.
Death Domain - negative plane avatar, although it does remain rubbish.
Destruction Domain - smite Infidel, although it seems that it does not work as it should.
Evil Domain - ability to turn outsiders, and turn undead does improve with cleric levels.
Fury Domain - battle master, you get more dexterity, constitution, AB, damage, and damage reduction.
Protection Domain - you get divine protection with one of the highest possible will saves in the game.
Strength Domain - divine strength and the only way outside barbarian to get +12 to strength.

Moon, Spider Domains - also give additional creatures that you can use your turn undead against.

And lets just face it, there is a lot that a single class cleric can do - with or without those three bonus feats. Now, technically you could go something like Cleric 11/Hospitaler 9/Hierophant 10 to get two Great Wisdom feats - but you will have both Hospitaler and Hierophant to roleplay. And lets us not forget that divine classes tend to just offer two skillpoints per level. That 15 points in Lore (Religion) eats up a whole lot of role-playing flavour since you probably also want high Concentration and Spellcraft - a limitation that a single class cleric does not have to suffer to be honest - they can just take able learner and crossclass into whatever skill they want instead.

Oh, but there is one class combination where you simple cannot beat Hierophant and that is the Cleric 10/Rogue3/Blackflame Zealot 7/Hierophant 10 because it is the only way to get caster level 30...

[Steve]

Those 3 bonus feats mean you can get the same DC you get from taking spell power, other than the occasional time when you roll high enough to get to CL35...though you also get the bonus spells from the couple extra points of WIS. You still have an additional bonus epic feat you can spend to get an Epic Spell as well. Vampiric Feast, Epic Mass Heal, Greater Ruin, whatever...

So you devalue what M3nt says is/was?

The Hierophant PRC changed that and put DC clerics back on the map.

[Steve]

aside from the severe downside of having to be LG which is why i deleted mine...

The BGTSCC wiki states MoL can be of any Good alignment.

[Blackman D]

would have still deleted it... good is bad

mine was so old she was originally a doomguide so was neutral, i dont play good anything

[Sun Wukong]

Those 3 bonus feats mean you can get the same DC you get from taking spell power, other than the occasional time when you roll high enough to get to CL35...though you also get the bonus spells from the couple extra points of WIS. You still have an additional bonus epic feat you can spend to get an Epic Spell as well. Vampiric Feast, Epic Mass Heal, Greater Ruin, whatever...

So you devalue what M3nt says is/was?

The Hierophant PRC changed that and put DC clerics back on the map.

Before the dispel fix, and well, the Practised Spellcaster caster fix, a typical DC cleric was someone who made use of the bonus caster levels to improve their DC. You know, a dip in Dragonslayer or Warpriest. You had people going for that '32+' caster level for another +1 spell DC. Thus the two things here are not actually in conflict. You know, some people just want to squeeze out that +1 DC... and sometimes having that +1 Great Wisdom just didn't take you there. (It all depends on the build you got.)

[Steve]

They could be made to give 1/10 or even no spell progression at all, while still raising CL.

This is what the Hierophant seems to imply. But I need to check the DMG later, to see what the text says there. There are other sources to search through, as well.

I'm sure this will piss some people off, but: