Bone, boss and vendor camping

[Valefort]

It's clearly super lame. That said even if it wasn't possible to save location in Avernus all that would be needed is to make a run for it and then go shopping, which wouldn't be very long. It boils down to muling which is allowed because essentially impossible to stop properly.

[Mork]

Yea I get it - making a run, shopping and then dying with lvl 30 char is possible too but actually takes some time and effort. There's plenty of creatures down there that may make it difficult. Yet still I believe it could improve situation of some organization that actually takes an effort to do whole "get back from Avernus" quest in a group and shop there how it was intended delivering goods in IC manner without suicide run/mule chars logging. I know if sounds selfish as I'm referring to my own organisation - but it feels bad having your idea for a guild partially broken cause of OOC means.

[chad878262]

If a player can get a character to Avernus once, they can get that character back again within 10 minutes directly from spawning in Soubar so what exactly would be the benefit to the cost in development hours of implementing some sort of fix?

Our development resources are a limited commodity (though it may not often seem so because they put out such an amazing amount of content in each update!) I would not feel it a good use of those resources to spend the effort so that a player has to run his 'mule' character 10 minutes to get to the Avernus shop instead of spawning there.

There are multiple ways to get to the Avernus shop with no risk whatsoever, I can promise you these are relatively well known and if a player doesn't know it would be easy to find out either IC'ly or OOC'ly.

[Mork]

If a player can get a character to Avernus once, they can get that character back again within 10 minutes directly from spawning in Soubar so what exactly would be the benefit to the cost in development hours of implementing some sort of fix?

Ok - for a player it's sometimes hard to judge how hard to implement some idea would be. Even for me as a programmer blocking save location to certain place seems like 1 hour max - but I could be wrong since I've never worked in nwn2 toolkit.

There are multiple ways to get to the Avernus shop with no risk whatsoever, I can promise you these are relatively well known and if a player doesn't know it would be easy to find out either IC'ly or OOC'ly.

I was under impression its not that easy. I know there is stealth/etheral/sanctuary but cant those be countered like in Netherese maze?

In the end I understand that its hard to sometimes keep up with us players ingenuity. Its just that I think "letting go" is a small defeat in reaching goal that creating great server is.

[dedude]

There is no technical, nor resource limitation reason for not doing something about this.

[chad878262]

Ok - for a player it's sometimes hard to judge how hard to implement some idea would be. Even for me as a programmer blocking save location to certain place seems like 1 hour max - but I could be wrong since I've never worked in nwn2 toolkit.

Don't know, not a developer. However, every hour adds up when you are dealing with folks that have full time jobs and volunteering to help out. They enjoy playing the game as well after all... For me it is the combination of any level of effort plus no real effect.

I was under impression its not that easy. I know there is stealth/etheral/sanctuary but cant those be countered like in Netherese maze?

In the end I understand that its hard to sometimes keep up with us players ingenuity. Its just that I think "letting go" is a small defeat to reaching goal that creating great server is.

Lorewise shouldn't it work? Even if it didn't there are those that could/can get through the Netherese Maze unscathed. I don't see it as "letting go" or as a defeat. This server is fantastic as it is, the things that continuously get upgraded/added are all gravy in my opinion. We knew when we added epic stores that it would create a new economy and it has done that very well. It's a far better situation (IMO) than having only those players that were a part of the server in 2012 or prior able to acquire epic items. I can appreciate that a large portion of your characters RP is related to dealing with devils, acquiring goods and then selling them to others at a profit. However, may other players have created RP through their merchants as well. Regardless how they acquire the goods the outcome is players who, either for mechanical or RP reasons cannot go to Avernus or would not stand for a portal to the hells to remain open (if they knew of it IC'ly) are able to acquire the top store items on the server... Were this not the case it would be quite unfortunate as the selection of epic gear available in the various faction shops and BG low epic vendors is nowhere near what is in Avernus. If only 'evil' guys were allowed to use that gear the entire server would be made up of evil PC's with no good guys to squash their villainous plans.

[Valefort]

Preventing location saving in Avernus is easy, just hardly enough. One possibility would be to set Avernus entrance behind a group wall so to say, like the stone giant area. 3 people needed to enter.. that would limit things a lot.

[Mork]

Regardless how they acquire the goods the outcome is players who, either for mechanical or RP reasons cannot go to Avernus or would not stand for a portal to the hells to remain open (if they knew of it IC'ly) are able to acquire the top store items on the server... Were this not the case it would be quite unfortunate as the selection of epic gear available in the various faction shops and BG low epic vendors is nowhere near what is in Avernus.

Soooo are you saying for reason that you cant get to Avernus IC its perfectly ok for players to ask a friend with relogged mule char or do a OOC suicide run? Cause Paladins also want "items" and stuff? That is really poor explanation for a RP server.

Not to mention we just made a solution working for those that cannot deal with the Devils, and to my knowledge "Badgers" were not first organisation that offered this. Its only convenience that leads to practices described by me - not an OOC desire for Paladins to have epic gear which they easily can access by ordering it from other players. Please don't rationalize so obvious meta plays like this.

[AC81]

Not that I agree with vendor camping but anytime anyone goes to Avernus to shop it's an OOC move in my opinion - no matter whether they do it 'properly' or not. I mean, going to a layer of the Hells ?!?!? For shopping ?!?!?! C'mon, really? If we were playing properly, going to Avernus is certain death.

[Mork]

Not that I agree with vendor camping but anytime anyone goes to Avernus to shop it's an OOC move in my opinion - no matter whether they do it 'properly' or not. I mean, going to a layer of the Hells ?!?!? For shopping ?!?!?! C'mon, really? If we were playing properly, going to Avernus is certain death.

I'd like to argue with this a bit. I'd agree if lvl cap would be 15 or 20 but we have lvl 30 EPIC chars. PnP lvl 30 chars can potentially challenge gods, or at least demi-gods for sure. Its not really that lore-breaking and OOC for lvl 30 group to challenge hell lords themselves. Sure normally they wouldn't do it every couple days for "shopping" but I can imagine lvl 25+ group being set in Avernus for adventure.

[AC81]

Not that I agree with vendor camping but anytime anyone goes to Avernus to shop it's an OOC move in my opinion - no matter whether they do it 'properly' or not. I mean, going to a layer of the Hells ?!?!? For shopping ?!?!?! C'mon, really? If we were playing properly, going to Avernus is certain death.

I'd like to argue with this a bit. I'd agree if lvl cap would be 15 or 20 but we have lvl 30 EPIC chars. PnP lvl 30 chars can potentially challenge gods, or at least demi-gods for sure. Its not really that lore-breaking and OOC for lvl 30 group to challenge hell lords themselves. Sure normally they wouldn't do it every couple days for "shopping" but I can imagine lvl 25+ group being set in Avernus for adventure.

Except we aren't playing PnP, our characters don't have the power of a PnP level 30 and it's widely thought that our actual power levels (when compared to PnP lore) are roughly half our PC's HD. So what we really have is a bunch (or even just 1) level 15's running a layer of Hell filling a shopping list. Lore-wise, I figure the notable adventurers that COULD make the trip BOTH ways, wouldn't go there for something trivial like shopping. However, this is just my opinion. I like the shop, I just think it is in the wrong place. As for camping (of all sorts), it sucks.

[chad878262]

That is really poor explanation for a MEDIUM RP server.

Fixed that for ya Mork

Not that I agree with vendor camping but anytime anyone goes to Avernus to shop it's an OOC move in my opinion - no matter whether they do it 'properly' or not. I mean, going to a layer of the Hells ?!?!? For shopping ?!?!?! C'mon, really? If we were playing properly, going to Avernus is certain death.

Yep, try an pull something like this off with a DM in a PnP session. It is one thing when a DM is running an epic style event that takes you to the hells. There will be fear and a true sense of potential death (or worse). PvE environment where the hells is an optional XP grind for mid to high epics? Very OOC. Heading there once a week for a spot of shopping? Yep, also OOC, who does that??? Argue all you want for others OOC actions, but simply put making a day trip through the hells should pretty much require DM oversight to be considered in character.

. Its only convenience that leads to practices described by me - not an OOC desire for Paladins to have epic gear which they easily can access by ordering it from other players. Please don't rationalize so obvious meta plays like this.

How did you find the hells in game? stumble upon it? Or did you OOC know where it was? Or did someone show you? If so was it IC? That seems fairly odd for an IC discussion. "Yo, there is this sweet shoe store you gotta see mate...one thing, we need to cross a layer of the hells to get there....nah, no worries, I can get us through with my sweet magics!"

At a minimum some layer of meta is involved in the very act of going to Avernus REPEATEDLY and in most cases in even finding it in the first place. Basically you are frustrated because you want to have your merchant RP and make your phat goldz, so the meta that other people are doing is worse than the meta you do. I've gone to Avernus a few times, I don't make it a regular occurrence for precisely the reason AC81 laid out, but I don't hold it against the players that make more use of the store either as a merchant or simply to outfit their characters. Seems to me that the merchants visiting their OOC aren't hurting anyone and are providing a valuable service to other players. Who exactly is 'hurt' by the vendor camping (since that is a thing now)? Are you frustrated because they have more appraise than you so can sell stuff cheaper? If anything the downside is that they can't transfer items from the Avernus Mule to any buyers until after a reset occurs, whereas you have the option of making a run at any time, without awaiting reset. There are positives to not relying on a mule you have parked in the Avernus shop.

[dedude]

That is really poor explanation for a MEDIUM RP server.

Fixed that for ya Mork

Pulling the "medium RP server" card as an excuse for poor design choice is terrible. If we don't at least agree to aim higher than that, I'm probably done pouring my free time into this game.

[Valefort]

Let's no over dramatize this, isn't it relatively minor ? How many mules are parked in Avernus ? Two, three ?

It is a problem but not a big one, disable location saving, put Avernus entrance behind a group wall and it's sorted.

[Kiran]

Wont it just mean those who want the best items on game will just form ooc parties or go there invis to go shopping, or clear it real quick? All you are doing is wasting their time, not improving roleplay.

Maybe move the shop to somewhere thats not hell...?