With 30 AB before spells and bonuses, do I need EW?

[Hoihe]

http://nwn2db.com/build/?271003

The build I plan to switch to due to frustration with dispels.

http://nwn2db.com/build/?268196

The current build



So, while I really love Expose Weakness for its snowballing effect and also the chance to emote fancy swordfighting techniques (One Weapon kind of already covers it at last), I also like having 10 int buffed.



This build would have a "guaranteed" AB of:

26 (BAB) + 4 (Epic Greatsword focus) + 4 (Greater Magic Weapon is undispellable) + 1 (Epic Prowess) for a total of 35 AB, 37 with Bull's Strength, 36 with +2 strength gear.

And would deal 2d6 (greatsword) + 12 ( 25 gr. int + 3 from item 2 handed) + 4 (GMW) + 2 (greatsword spec) for an average of 25 dmg per hit without fancy g swords.

It also has HiPS, to help hit things.


Does it need Expose Weakness still to land hits reliaby, or can I boost my damage by 3 by taking 4 great ints, and my skill points by a few?


Also, is +2 AB or 9th level spells better?
As in
8 wizard/10EK/8fighter/4SD for 9th level
6 wizard/10EK/10fighter/4 SD for +4 AB

[chad878262]

With HiPS I consider AB 34 to be the "minimum" viable AB so even without EW yes you should be able to hit things. That being said I would take EW over the extra Great INT feat all day long. I mean, dropping Epic Prowess and Expose Weakness is losing SO MUCH just for that +2 damage from 2 great INT's. Your build already has 25 INT, 29 after Fox Cunning while retaining EW... What does 30 INT give you that is better than juicy, juicy Expose Weakness?

For a Gish, 9th level spells brings Shades for Premonition, Protection from Spells and Shield in one spell with long duration, but since you can be dispelled by a CR15 caster with relative ease (DC 11+10=30 vs. d20+15 = 30% chance per buff with regular dispel).

Frankly I am surprised you are unhappy with a CL26 that has HiPS. Dispels are not that common and there is only a 20% chance of Greater dispel removing each ward. In addition with clever use of HiPS you can avoid it often enough except during those rare occasions when you get caught between multiple casters.

Personally I would not likely be happy with your updated build... If I wanted a low caster level gish that is an elf, I would make a SB5/W12/SD3/BS10. Level 9 Spells (CL22 w/ PSC), BAB 23, double INT to damage (which will do more for you than Weapon Specialization) and you also get Weapon Finesse improving your AB.

However, I am assuming something in your build requires using a Great Sword on a HiPSing Gish...but I would say the primary reason for your dissatisfaction is less about dispels and more about the fact that your build is only viable because of the buffs. Synergizing better with your stats will make you less buff reliant and thus less frustrated by dispels.

[Hoihe]

With HiPS I consider AB 34 to be the "minimum" viable AB so even without EW yes you should be able to hit things. That being said I would take EW over the extra Great INT feat all day long. I mean, dropping Epic Prowess and Expose Weakness is losing SO MUCH just for that +2 damage from 2 great INT's. Your build already has 25 INT, 29 after Fox Cunning while retaining EW... What does 30 INT give you that is better than juicy, juicy Expose Weakness?

For a Gish, 9th level spells brings Shades for Premonition, Protection from Spells and Shield in one spell with long duration, but since you can be dispelled by a CR15 caster with relative ease (DC 11+10=30 vs. d20+15 = 30% chance per buff with regular dispel).

Frankly I am surprised you are unhappy with a CL26 that has HiPS. Dispels are not that common and there is only a 20% chance of Greater dispel removing each ward. In addition with clever use of HiPS you can avoid it often enough except during those rare occasions when you get caught between multiple casters.

Personally I would not likely be happy with your updated build... If I wanted a low caster level gish that is an elf, I would make a SB5/W12/SD3/BS10. Level 9 Spells (CL22 w/ PSC), BAB 23, double INT to damage (which will do more for you than Weapon Specialization) and you also get Weapon Finesse improving your AB.

However, I am assuming something in your build requires using a Great Sword on a HiPSing Gish...but I would say the primary reason for your dissatisfaction is less about dispels and more about the fact that your build is only viable because of the buffs. Synergizing better with your stats will make you less buff reliant and thus less frustrated by dispels.

Cannot get bladesinger due to RP.

Cannot suddenly unlearn greatsword and switch to Rapier either. Greatsword also gives reach, which is an RP fight advantage.


As for 20% chance,

CR 12 area's orc warlock at level 16 eats all my spells. At level 17, I'm suddenly immune.

Unless I get level 30 Cl or maybe 29, it's pointless to have any Cl. 0 or 26, no difference.

[chad878262]

But with an RCR won't you suddenly 'unlearn' 9th level spells and be much more fighter than caster as a gish? It's your character so you get to make the call, but I'm just pointing out that changing your class split in this case is already ret-conning. No difference I see in retconning what weapon you use or how you learn/apply your magic as opposed to retconning the fact that you go from knowing 9th level spells to capping at 8th level spells. Unless of course your current level makes it so as of right now the class split is exactly the same in which case how would you know how bad dispels will be later?

Not trying to argue with you Hoihe, so please don't take it as that. I really only made this post for the purpose to point out that if you are thinking of an RCR, you should consider all options. It wouldn't be much fun to RCR from a concept you aren't having fun with, only to end up with a new build that you find equally (or more) frustrating. Hopefully that makes sense, trying to be helpful, not trying to question your RP at all. You're fantastic in that regard, sir!

[Hoihe]

Currently have 7th level spells unlocked, and will get the next caster level at 22 with my current build, 6 levels and likely months away.

[Valefort]

Or perhaps, since you are familiar with maths and probability you could actually look at the dispel formula and not overreact, loaded dices are real but it's not that significant

[mrm3ntalist]

This build is by far the best - http://nwn2db.com/build/?268196

[Hoihe]

Or perhaps, since you are familiar with maths and probability you could actually look at the dispel formula and not overreact, loaded dices are real but it's not that significant

I should be almost immune at 16 to the orc warlock's dispels. In fact, I am the opposite - total obiliration of almost all my wards. I have feelings I won't experience anything better lategame.

[18:21.42] <@``> but g dispel 1d20 + 20 vs each effect
[18:21.53] <@``> and each effect at CL 30 gets a 41
[18:22.02] <@``> so it's i mpossible to dispel anything
[18:22.11] <@``> at CL 29, something will rarely get dispelled
[18:22.15] <@``> CL 28, a couple things
[18:22.19] <@``> CL 27, a few things
[18:22.27] <@``> CL 26 or lower most or all of it

So what difference is between cl 26 and 0 again? Longer durations that get dispelled all the same.

[aaron22]

at level 16 you should be able to go into that room and take a nap. even if you are being dispelled that should not cause any problems.

[chad878262]

I don't know the level of that Orc Warlock...but lets say it's CL10. That means 1d20+10 vs. your caster level 16. 11+16=DC27, meaning the Orc Warlock has to roll a 17 or better to dispel you. I have a hard time believing you get completely stripped by this warlock unless it is actually breaching you as opposed to dispel. Got any screenshots showing how many wards are dispelled? If it is truly that many then perhaps that warlock needs to be reviewed. I personally haven't had many issues getting dispelled even of my consumables.


Another point of note is you don't have HiPS yet which makes a HUGE difference in protection from dispel.

[Steve]

The NWN2 Engine is ALWAYS going to make you suffer, Hoihe. It is designed that way.

But, my empirical experience says that you absolutely need CL 27 or higher. But also realize that that is at Lvl 26+...and how often are you at that level? I ask that because my Characters rarely are, so they rarely are beneath their actual CR in CL.

But I wholeheartedly agree with Chad: never pass on Expose Weakness, if your PC can get it. It is so thoroughly bugged and powerful, it makes everything mo' better.

[Hoihe]

The NWN2 Engine is ALWAYS going to make you suffer, Hoihe. It is designed that way.

But, my empirical experience says that you absolutely need CL 27 or higher. But also realize that that is at Lvl 26+...and how often are you at that level? I ask that because my Characters rarely are, so they rarely are beneath their actual CR in CL.

But I wholeheartedly agree with Chad: never pass on Expose Weakness, if your PC can get it. It is so thoroughly bugged and powerful, it makes everything mo' better.

Yeah, I'll end up just 1 Cl short of 27 and can't afford even less AB. I'm thinking to go all in so as to at least have fairly decent AB without any magic (that can be dispelled), coming up at 41 that CAN be.

Would make me lose 9th level spells, but I suppose multi-tasking three masteries is a skill that was sacrificed

[chad878262]

hips makes up for lower caster level.

[Hoihe]

http://nwn2db.com/build/?271068


Dispels defeated me.