DETECT EVIL - PALADINS

[Darradarljod]

I personally think that an ultra-zealous paladin who is going around casting detect evil on random people just because they might be evil is not really doing a good job of playing lawful good and should as a result have their alignment changed (and thus, lose the power to detect evil).

Killing someone because your spell told you they are evil is still going to end up breaking some laws, especially if they haven't (yet) done anything wrong.

I am overwhelmingly overjoyed that I am not the only person that feels this way. +1

Just because the person has an evil alignment doesn't necessarily mean that they would do anything to break your dogma or the laws of the land. This wreaks of metagaming (even if it isn't meant to) and would fall right in line with you asking me for a bluff roll if the name my characters gave you didn't match my character sheet. There would need to be some precursor as to why your character would be suspicious other than just jumping on the paranoia band wagon. We're evil. We aren't all Banites.

As for offering something that would be incredibly vague, I wouldn't mind. In the event that our characters fought under these pretenses and there were witnesses I would assume you would stand trial for attacking someone without reason near a town. If you plotted to do so outside of town I would imagine you would lose lawful points as it was against the laws of the land and plotting to kill really seems like pre-meditated murder......

Sense motive (which requires dm supervision) would be perfect for everything you're looking for.

If it were allowed to have it the way you like then as an evil character I should be able to attack and kill you without any indication I am doing so based on the holy symbols and attire you are carrying/wearing.

I didn't mention the example of the tavern-to-tavern smiter on the original Baldur's Gate game to suggest it as the absolute ideal use of Detect Evil. But I dont see why the use of the ability in that way should be inconceivable, considering why paladins exist. (To root out and destroy evil, btw.)

Perhaps in the eyes of some paladins, there is no difference between a man or a wild orc when their hearts are equally wicked. And this is no different, I suppose, from a Banite recognizing a Tormites holy symbols and defying him to a fight to the death by virtue of his faith alone - which I think is perfectly natural in a realm such as Toril, where good and evil are both objective forces in eternal opposition and constant competition. The stuff of legends, right Boo?

If players here are precious about their evil characters being called out and potentially even getting the smite, perhaps the Detect Evil special ability for paladins (which is also a wizard/cleric spell btw, as well as Know Alignment) should not be introduced WITHOUT simultaneously introducing the means to conceal one's alignment (as suggested by Tsidkenu on page 1 along with a list of appropriate spells and means to do so).

[Xanfyrst]

Attacking someone just because he's evil and without having done a criminal act is not a lawful act, or a good act. Any paladin doing that should fall from grace instantly.

[Bar]

It might be prudent to interrogate party members thoroughly through use of sense motive if you suspect them of being evil. Besides detecting evil isn't that hard when the list of suspects can be narrowed down to people wearing skulls/dark armor, anyone else should be rewarded for blending in and only have the Inquisition begin when they start acting suspicious, but that's just my opinion. In summary; A spell would cheapen the experience and I'd suggest sticking to a gut feeling from your character's point of view in determining who is evil.

[Winterborne]

[Perhaps in the eyes of some paladins, there is no difference between a man or a wild orc when their hearts are equally wicked.

It doesn't matter what they think in the matter. Paladins are not above the law, and player paladins ingame have no authority to enforce or impose laws on others.

A Paladin detecting someone as evil and working to bring them to Justice and arrest is fine. A paladin detecting someone is evil and smiting them in response is murder, and that Paladin should no longer be considered Lawful (though I see no reason why that action can't still be good).

I for the record play no evil characters, and am okay with detect evil personally. But using it in the manner described is absolutely not paladin-like, and honestly the fact it was included in BG originally as that NPC is pretty much an egregious mistake - unless that Paladin had authority to enforce laws in some way, and has the authority by some governing body to do that legally. If he doesn't have that, then murder is murder, and is illegal.

[chad878262]

and what's worse is if you kill the paladin who attacks you based on reputation it further reduces your reputation, just for defending yourself from the brute! I mean, unless there is evidence of an actual crime he was in the wrong!

But then, we are talking about a nearly 20 year old video game and there are limitations to what they can do even today. My point is here that the paladin didn't attack based on alignment, but based on the reputation system. Thought being if your reputation is below 6 you must be robbing and killing peasants or something...

[Valefort]

Things are not so clear though because the majority of areas represented on the server are entirely lawless, there are often no authorities at all in a 50 or even 100km radius, and no claim from any kingdom either.

[Xanfyrst]

Things are not so clear though because the majority of areas represented on the server are entirely lawless, there are often no authorities at all in a 50 or even 100km radius, and no claim from any kingdom either.

Doesn't change the fact that smiting someone simply because they have evil alignment is unlawful and certainly not good either, whether it's in a lawful city or unlawful wilderness. If they haven't done anything evil, all a paladin can do is either avoid the individual or keep an eye on him/her in case they act on their nature, like fx killing someone for gold or joy.

[Valefort]

Sure, however if Joe paladin sees evil Bob doing evil stuff in a lawless area he is not bound by the laws of distant city z.

[Your best friend]

It certainly doesn't help that the definitions of what are actually good or evil actions can be incredibly subjective. It's a bit easier when you have just one DM making the calls, such as in pen and paper -- but a player world with 50-90 players on at any given time? Not so much. DM supervision is limited.

[metaquad4]

Its not unlawful unless its against the paladin code. Lawful does not necessarily mean "the laws of a city". I believe the paladin code does have something in it about respecting the laws of the land they are in, however.

"A paladin must be of lawful good alignment and loses all class abilities if she ever willingly commits an evil act.

Additionally, a paladin’s code requires that she respect legitimate authority, act with honor (not lying, not cheating, not using poison, and so forth), help those in need (provided they do not use the help for evil or chaotic ends), and punish those who harm or threaten innocents."

Respecting legitimate authority. Aka, the laws of the land they are in at the time. That'd be the one.

Acting with honor, however, would be the one we would use here for attacking someone based on an alignment detection. Its not honorable to simply attack someone based on detection from alignment, especially if they had their back turned to you or are unarmed.

Plus, a paladin would recognize that evil is an ever-present thing. Many peasants are evil for example, simply due to multiple minor events (according to the book of vile darkness, nearly every questionable activity is classified as an evil act). They know they can't prosecute every last evil individual with their full power, it is a waste of time (not all evil creatures act on their impulses, often due to fear of the law in a neutral/good city) and it is a waste of energy (there are a lot of evil characters in any given world, and it would take a lot of manpower to put them all away. Not to mention the backlash you'd get from people who can't read alignments and just see a thug trying to take out as many people as they can), and due to mentioned issues it could undermine a paladin's reputation or (worse) the reputation of all paladins.

A paladin could also help (party with) an evil individual, provided the goal is not an evil one. For example, hunting xvarts (who are obviously bothering and attacking travellers) is not an evil end, so that is a-ok. Just a side-note on that whole thing.

[DM Rosette]

Oh boy. A paladin thread.


A paladin in lawless lands follows no laws aside from his code. And his code states nothing about giving quarter to the wicked. There is nothing honorless about walking up to someone and issuing a challenge. A paladin though, first and foremost, knows how to pick his battles. Paladins are zealots, judge and the jury when needed. However they are not blinded by their zeal.

As a paladin, you are put on this earth to do the righteous work, to act in the name of your god, promoting the good and lawful aspects of their faith. Your time and your efforts are a precious thing. Expending that precious time and effort to put down someone simply because they are evil would be a waste in certain cases, when your time could be better spent elsewhere. Why are you smiting Joe the caravan driver, who cheats on his taxes and occasionally dabbles into smuggling, by the Friendly Arm Inn, when there are woods infested with orcs to the east, and a forest filled with an omnious evil presence to the west? Why is Billy the pickpocket in the docks district deserving of smiting when there is an entire Undercity to cleanse?

That does not mean that Joe and Billy shouldn't be dealt with, but the question remains if you should be expending your divine granted powers on them when much greater evil(s) lurk nearby.



Regarding detect evil on the server:

I'd say it's fine in DM events, if the DM allows it. Not too enthusiastic on it playerside, even between agreeing parties. It would possibly be fine if it's two people who trust each other.



All of the above is personal views and opinions.

[Dagesh]

Your talk about Paladins had me do some research:

viewtopic.php?f=10&t=60735

[Fury_US]

Your talk about Paladins had me do some research:

viewtopic.php?f=10&t=60735

I think, from that thread, this bit is the most pertinent and applicable to this topic:

I also agree with the argument you unfolded from that: evil intent plays a part in determining if a crime has been committed and justice must therefore be served by some sort of action (usually meting out punishment) on the Tyrran's part. The published D&D game, throughout three official editions and several additional iterations, now, has established that paladins don't automatically attack any creature they see whom they know or believe to be evil (in alignment). As you say, evil ACTS are to be punished, not evil natures or evil private inner thoughts never acted upon (if I daydream of making love to a beautiful woman I see in the street who is clearly wearing a wedding ring, have I committed an evil act if I immediately dismiss such thoughts angrily, never voicing or acting on them?).

So, in essence, a detect evil spell should never be used as a green light for smiting. At most, it's the paladin giving the stink eye to the person bearing wickedness in their heart, and saying something to the effect of "I know what you are. You think you're clever, but you're not. I'm watching you... you do anything, even if it's breathe wrong, and I'm on your @ss like green on grass."

[Darradarljod]

Torminator

[BattleBee47]

My take on this...It would be nice...BUT For Miss Althea...She has her eyes open to everyone's actions. Actively watching what spells they cast...what methods used to subdue their enemies. How they speak/interact with others. Who they associate themselves with. To me it makes it more interesting guessing/trying to figure out if someone is evil or not. Not everyone who appears to be evil is, and some who is extremely evil could walk up with a bright smile. You never know. It adds an element of...Can she trust this person? Can she confide? It makes others earn her trust, if they care to. Just my 2 cents for what it's worth. Obviously if she sees someone walking around with a vampire or undead soldier...it's on. But otherwise..unless she witnesses it or it is openly expressed, something of that sort...it is all a mystery. It's part of the fun for me. I love it.