The Bladesinger PRC

[mrm3ntalist]

Definitely Bladesinger has more flavor which is expressed by mechanical feats. However, that part is not important in this case. I also like the idea of a gish using both a weapon and casting DC spells. Nwn2 mechanics does not support this though, at least not efficiently. Therefore the only kind of spells the character would use are buffing spells and depending the alignment debuff spells such as enervation or curse of impending blades and/or high damage spells such as avasculate.

In summary, what i am looking for is a melee focused gish with as much mechanical power as possible.

[Hawke]

It used to be that gishes ruled supreme everywhere, because of the Caster Level bug.

Since that bug was wrangled under control... the idea of gishes makes that build pool smaller for fear of being dispelled by a normal dispel magic.

I am glad I didn't act on my 8 wizard/5 thaum/13 druid/ 4 bm... the CL for both sides would have been great... but with the bug fix, makes the class combo useless. Such is the fate for old style gishes.

[Sun Wukong]

In which case I think that going for Bladesinger might be the best choice for you, since you can just pump up your intelligence score for more damage, AC, and spell DC.

For example that Wizard 10/Bladesinger 10/Eldritch Knight 10 comes with BAB of 25 and caster level of 29.


But as for some non Bladesinger option for a human... Why not something like a 'Sorcerer 13/Archmage 10/Cleric 7' with the Strength Domain? You could go for EDM, or, just pump Charisma as high as possible to make use of both regular Divine Might for extra damage and Divine Shield for AC, which would also translate to those high DC spells.

With 18 wisdom you would get 4 level 3 cleric spells slots, and 3 level 4 cleric spell slots. That is about 70 or 110 rounds of Divine Power per rest depending on whether you get Practised Spell Caster (Cleric) or not. In this case your BAB would be 30, your Sorcerer caster level is 30 and you might actually outperform the Bladesinger on all fronts. I haven't crunched the number.

As for the need to follow a specific deity, you could pick Garagos, Helm, Ilmater, Lathander, Lovitar, or perhaps Tempus. In the case of Lovitar and Garagos you could easily add some Bloodmagus into the mix for +1 Spell DCs with bloodmagic and the other PRC perks.

[Deathgrowl]

Why not something like a 'Sorcerer 13/Archmage 10/Cleric 7' with the Strength Domain?

Because

1. Sorcerer gets level 7 spells at Sorcerer14. The split would be Sorcerer15/Archmage8/Cleric7
2. Cleric7 means max 11 caster level. Strength domain lets you get divine power at spell level 3, and you can extend into level 4. With 18 wisdom you have 2 extended and 3 normal for a grand total of 77 rounds. A little bit under 8 minutes.
3. Once you're out of Divine Power, you're basically useless.

[chad878262]

In summary, what i am looking for is a melee focused gish with as much mechanical power as possible.

BladeSinger might fill up more of my nwn2db builds than any other PRC based on the theory crafting and testing we did prior to release...

One of the interesting ones you might like is only CL24 so you have to play it more like a Fighter type, equipping epic/+4 in all armor type slots for example. However, it gets strong damage from multiple types and is fun to play.

The build is S6/P5/BS10/EK9 with STR/CHA 21, DEX 14 and INT as high as you can get it so you can benefit from AC... Likely best you can do is INT 14 with a wood elf in order to get EDM. However, you do also have Divine Shield for AC is you're still fine. Damage can be very high with Song of Celerity, EDM and Smite Evil on a boss! Note that leveling will suck unless you are a Wild Elf which doesn't really help you meet the difficult stat requirements. Wood Elf might be best for qualifying for EDM, but gets an INT penalty and also has to keep Sorc and Paladin leveling up on alternating levels... You did say it was for RCR so may not matter depending on the level of the current toon.

If you are wanting a Wizard based here are a few other ideas I have played with:

W7/DS10/EK10/SD3 - DeathSinger because Drow is almost required for 19 DEX and 26 INT. CL26, BAB25 and HiPS. Plays a bit like a sneak attacker, but where damage is from Song of Celerity and Combat Insight. EDIT: I think when I tested with this build I actually went W6/DS10/EK10/SD4... Gets BAB26/CL25. Not a huge difference, but the extra attack might hit occasionally...

W5/SB5/BS10/EK10 - This is a build I play with a PC (currently early epic level). CL24, BAB27. Good damage from Combat Insight and Insightful Strike, uses spells for extra damage without having many wards up. Requires gold to buy +4 armor/dodge/natural/deflection items, still wards with shield/Deez and just keeps multiple castings available. Keeps a wand of least mantle on hand as does not have quicken spell, but otherwise may have a few wards up, but mostly loads up on damage spells to use with Song of Celerity.

W8/SB5/D7/BS10 - As above, but only get's level 7 spells and CL18. However, Duelist brings more damage and +3 AC (+1 Deflection, +2 INT to AC). Basically you are giving up 8th and 9th level spells as well as the ability to get +5 on your weapon from GMW for all the Duelist goodies...

My personal opinion is Bladesinger's are fantastic for making a gish that doesn't need/want CL30. There spells are useful without needing to be 'dispel proof' thus you can build without ever worrying over anything besides what threshold you are aiming for. CL20 for 9th level spells and +5 GMW is usually something I consider, but I really just look at a builds final AC (with epic items, but no buffs), AB (with GMW, but without Gr. Heroism etc.), Saves and Damage and see if I like it. You can of course build for CL30 (or 28 or whatever), but with Bladesinger most of the builds I like end up somewhere around CL23-26. More expensive to equip, sure...but when you see what they can do with Song of Celerity when not worried about loading up on buffs it's pretty cool! Only reason I would likely aim for a really high CL on a Bladesinger is if I was going to grab empower and maximize and then use something like Flame Arrows to get more damage. However, that is too niche for my tastes as there are so few spells that are not capped for damage.

[Steve]

My suggestion for your consideration, M3nt:

Wizard (7), Eldritch Knight (10), Dragonslayer (10), Cleric (3)

25 BAB, 26 CL, Auto Still Spell 0–9, Epic Spell Pentration for no-save spell slinging, Imp. Knockdown, Imp. Power Attack, 35 avg. DMG, 49 AC buffed, 44 AC if dispelled and you have +4 gear. STR high.

[Sun Wukong]

Why not something like a 'Sorcerer 13/Archmage 10/Cleric 7' with the Strength Domain?

Because

1. Sorcerer gets level 7 spells at Sorcerer14. The split would be Sorcerer15/Archmage8/Cleric7

That is true.

• Cleric7 means max 11 caster level. Strength domain lets you get divine power at spell level 3, and you can extend into level 4. With 18 wisdom you have 2 extended and 3 normal for a grand total of 77 rounds. A little bit under 8 minutes.

That is false.

Clerics get one additional slot per spell level, it is the domain spell slot. Thus you get 4 regular divine powers, and 3 extended. That means 70 rounds of divine power without PSC (cleric), and 110 rounds of divine power with PSC (cleric). Edit: Moreover, 70 rounds is almost 12 minutes, while 110 rounds is slightly over 18 minutes. Moreover, 70 rounds is 7 minutes, and 110 rounds is 11 minutes.

Now, were we to consider that you rarely have to fight one mob after another in this server, you can make those limited spells last past your rest timer. You honestly do not have to recast divine power when one cast runs out, only when there is something else to kill. Also, since mrm3ntalist is an old player, it is possible that he has amassed enough gold to just brew the potions of divine power as he needs them, hence lowering the required number of cleric levels.

1. Once you're out of Divine Power, you're basically useless.

[/list]

That is false.

This build would have that 30+ in charisma, which means that you actually have spell DCs, and therefore you could make use of various save based spells. It all depends on your spell selection - which you can do as gishes only need to select the few handfulls of usefull buffs.



Hey, 1 out 3 ain't bad!

[chad878262]

11 minutes is not the ~22 minutes you have to wait to rest (I think it's 45 seconds per level, but maybe not?). Regardless, Archmage has steep requirements and you are also going to have to think about other feats you want/need. You only get 7 pre-epic feats and 6 are basically taken so you have very limited options (Power Attack, Divine Might, Divine Shield, Skill Focus: Spellcraft, Spell Focus: X, and Spell Focus: Y). Thus if you are an aasimar you have Practiced Spellcaster and if human you also get Extend Spell (so basically you have to be human if you want to have extended divine power.

So now we are trying to build a human with 21 STR, 21 CHA and EDM or is going for max CHA, which I am not really seeing how it will reach 30, nor am I seeing how a 30 CHA Sorc/AM/Cleric is going to make a decent gish since STR will be pretty darn low (maybe 14, 20 when DP is active). Yeah, when Divine Power is not it's basically just an armored blaster... No Spell Casting Prodigy, no Greater/Epic Spell Focus means that the DC's are going to be a minimum of 4 points lower than a decent 'true' DC caster which means you're basically an armored blaster without ASoC levels, Empower, Maximize or Quicken... Does not seem a power build to me.

By no means am I saying it is not viable/playable. Just saying it doesn't belong in a discussion of trying to get the most power out of the build. When Divine Power is not up your BAB is 16 and your DCs are probably 23+ spell level, though I imagine you can get a few more points if you really min/max the build. I suppose you can spam IGMS, but with no empower/maximize you won't have that many of them.

[Sun Wukong]

11 minutes is not the ~22 minutes you have to wait to rest (I think it's 45 seconds per level, but maybe not?).

I would like to know where you can find this factory line of mobs to kill. Because wherever I have gone on this server, there has been quite a bit walking involved to find the next blob of mobs. Well, things were a bit different when the first level of Cloakwood Mines was filled with nothing but bugbears... But that was back in late 2008, or early 2009.

Regardless, Archmage has steep requirements and you are also going to have to think about other feats you want/need. You only get 7 pre-epic feats and 6 are basically taken so you have very limited options (Power Attack, Divine Might, Divine Shield, Skill Focus: Spellcraft, Spell Focus: X, and Spell Focus: Y). Thus if you are an aasimar you have Practiced Spellcaster and if human you also get Extend Spell (so basically you have to be human if you want to have extended divine power.

I did mention human as the race, didn't I? Why make things more complicated than they need to be?

So now we are trying to build a human with 21 STR, 21 CHA and EDM or is going for max CHA, which I am not really seeing how it will reach 30, nor am I seeing how a 30 CHA Sorc/AM/Cleric is going to make a decent gish since STR will be pretty darn low (maybe 14, 20 when DP is active). Yeah, when Divine Power is not it's basically just an armored blaster... No Spell Casting Prodigy, no Greater/Epic Spell Focus means that the DC's are going to be a minimum of 4 points lower than a decent 'true' DC caster which means you're basically an armored blaster without ASoC levels, Empower, Maximize or Quicken... Does not seem a power build to me.

That's a lot to unpack.

1) EDM: there are people who want to go for EDM no matter what. These people usually give up on Divine Shield because they want to get the most out of their EDM. Therefore, it frees a single feat to be used on something else.

2) 30+ charisma build with just 14~ base strength: Now, I am not aware of what kind of equipment mrm3ntalist has acquired over the years, but it is relatively easy to get your hands on weapons with 1d6 elemental damage, or some with 2 x 1d4 elemental damage, some even come with additional vampiric regeneration. Now, greater magic weapon makes these weapons +5. So...

+5 (Strength)
+5 (Greater Magic weapon)
+1d6 (elemental damage)
+10 (Divine Might)
= 23,5~

That is the damage before the weapon damage dice is added, along side with power attack, or possibility to two-hand the weapon. I once held a club that in this character's hands could deal 36.5~ damage per hit on average. Sure, it is not the greatest damage output out there, but it gets the job done with that trusty Ironbody/Cloudkill combination. Or just about any of the others stock spell combinations.

3) ASoC: ASoC is a lovely class to throw out some damage dice filled spells, but the point of a DC based caster has always been those save or die spells. For example Wail of the Banshee to clear out a large number of mobs in one go, or using Dominate Monster to have one of the stock mobs fight for you against its former brethen with a few buffs on it. Thus I find the loss of ASoC with its empower and maximise metamagic perks somewhat negligible.

By no means am I saying it is not viable/playable. Just saying it doesn't belong in a discussion of trying to get the most power out of the build. When Divine Power is not up your BAB is 16 and your DCs are probably 23+ spell level, though I imagine you can get a few more points if you really min/max the build. I suppose you can spam IGMS, but with no empower/maximize you won't have that many of them.

The funny thing is, I would like to say the same back at some of the other builds suggested here. The lower caster level makes them very much item dependent as it has been repeatedly stated. Perhaps mrm3ntalist has acquried enough items and gold over the years that this is not a problem for him, but it just as well might be an issue.

Now, if you are willing to settle for caster level of 29, you might just as well go for something like Sorcerer/Bloodmagus/Cleric instead of Archmage. Garagos and Lovitar sprung to my mind. I don't think I explained this clearly enough, actually at all, so my bad there. This lets you have more feats to spare, etc... Even allow you to go for some additional PRC if you so want. Not to mention that Bloodmagus comes with its own brew potion feat too, though I am not 100% sure if they can brew divine spells as well as arcane.

[Hawke]

I know there is a lot of discussion and while good, it is not on topic with Bladesinger.

Remember it isn't a pure gish conversation, so please keep it relating to Bladesingers.

[Maverick 40]

So, if you are going to roll an Elf, I don't see any reason why you would choose Dragon Slayer over Blade Singer.

You would need to invest so much more in feats to acquire Auto Still Spell (4 total Feats), which is basically given to you as a Blade Singer.

Blade Singer receives an extra combat Feat from a nice selection, as opposed to a Dragon Slayer given just Lightning Reflexes (which does sound RP appropriate by the way).

Blade Singer gets spice feats which are effective against all mobs, Dragon Slayer is given feats specific to fighting only Dragons (which will most likely kill you anyways:) )

So, Blade Singer +5 Feats, more versatile it seems like. Only thing I can think of, Dragon Slayer is more open to Sorceror, which tends to make for an easier Gish with re-loadable spells, as opposed to Wizard which has less access to spells, but more spell power....?

[Sun Wukong]

If I am not mistaken, a Bladesinger will not be able to negate the Arcane Spell failure from spells such as Stone or Iron Body. Therefore, they have to be slightly more careful when using Cloudkill to lower the enemy's constitution modifier. A Dragonslayer could just sit in the middle of it just and whack away at the enemy with impunity.

But you can always make use of spells memorized as Still Spell though.

[Maverick 40]

If I am not mistaken, a Bladesinger will not be able to negate the Arcane Spell failure from spells such as Stone or Iron Body. Therefore, they have to be slightly more careful when using Cloudkill to lower the enemy's constitution modifier. A Dragonslayer could just sit in the middle of it just and whack away at the enemy with impunity.

But you can always make use of spells memorized as Still Spell though.

So, someone with Auto Still Spell is not effected by Stone, or Iron Body? Number two, I don't know how much of a detriment that is, as opposed to having to lose 5 Feats to be able to use Stone, or Iron Body without an issue.....

[chad878262]

It's a common tactic. Iron body and some body give a ton of benefits with no downside to the auto still, well prepared caster.

[Hawke]

So, someone with Auto Still Spell is not effected by Stone, or Iron Body? Number two, I don't know how much of a detriment that is, as opposed to having to lose 5 Feats to be able to use Stone, or Iron Body without an issue.....

Well 4 feats for Bladesinger.

3 Feats pre-epic and 3 feats epic for Dragonslayer.

I think that if you were just going Wizard (sorcerer), EK, Bladesinger, you are fine... You will be effective and grand. The issue with my theorycraft is that when you add that fourth class. 10 levels of EK will only net you 5 AB. So if you wanted to add classes like Blood Magus or other caster classes, things can get more challenging.

With Dragon Slayer, I don't need to try to get to 26 Int (for +5 AC). I am only using 3 feats, instead of 4. That gives a little more wiggle room.

Bladesinger appears it is made to synergize with Shadowdancer... it really does, but with the skill point requirement (again you have to sacrifice) and the 19 dex (really should be brought down to 18 or even 17 dex) it makes the build meh. Because you are still looking at a CL of 27 minimum, and your Str, Con, Cha, Wis all have to be tanked in order to keep your int at 26 minimum.

It's a challenging feat to get enough PrCs involved to add flavor to the gish build of bladesinger. You have other choices for an armored caster, but for an armored gish, you are pretty much limited to the two classes to keep your CL up as high as possible.