Dynamic CR scaling on spawns questions

[Face]

i was already chased out of the orc cave on my level 11 by a mini boss and his minnions and it was (do-me) great even though i died 10 meters from the exit haha.

But stuff like this makes pve sooo mutch more fun if any thing you code monkeys should inprove and expand on it.

@Hoihe.
Im sure a elf player like you can call up on some friends to help you adventure any way.
Or perhaps dont make a build that simply cant fight? (Not that i know your toon but this seems to be the case to me from what you wrote)

[dedude]

As chad said, this system will be monitored and adjusted over the coming months. It is still only at the first iteration, so it is expected that balance is off and bugs will be found. So we really appreciate all the after action reports you guys are posting, those help a lot to get a feeling for where we are. Try not to just speculate and make up opinions before trying it out, and be open for the fact that this system has changed the perceived CR of most areas for any given PC. I can promise you that rewards in the sense of XP and loot are changed accordingly.

If your PC was happy in a CR10 area before this, maybe he now should move to what used to be a CR8 or CR9 area, or even CR6 or CR7. Those areas might now fit him better, and would give similar XP and dropped loot as his old area. So maybe he now has 4 areas that fit him, where before it was only 1.

Several adjustments are already in the pipeline. Few bugs have been found. Some balance stuff has been toned slightly down based on reports by players and QC. Based on reports in this thread, I will also make sure the random boss spawns doesn't happen right in the face of players, which isn't fair.

[chad878262]

wow. Something to offset the horrible decision to allow level 1's decked out in elite gear.

I am almost tempted to re-install.

That and Jand's wonderful gem collection has uses for the new planar binding system.

So you uninstalled/stopped playing because you were allowed to use higher level gear on level 1 PC's?

Couldn't you have simply not muled items?

As to difficulty concerns, the below contains a lot of OOC detail which has been stated previously, but if you don't want the OOC details you may want to start reading. However, if you do want the OOC detail in order to know where you should be 'safe' adventuring, recall this thread:
viewtopic.php?f=149&t=61255

Troll Claws are CR18 average, the Troll Cave is CR20 and the Ogre Cave is actually only CR16 (though not sure why, usually the interiors are more difficult than the exteriors, but that's another discussion). If you go to the Troll Claws as a level 18 PC or in a party where the lowest level is 18 or less there is literally NO CHANGE to the area. If you go there as a solo level 23 PC the max CR is 20 (22 in Troll Cave). Finally, if you are in a party and the lowest level party member is level 24 then the Troll Claws will have max CR of 20 and the Troll Cave will have max CR of 22.

With the breakdown of area's we have all this does is INCREASE the area's you can go, though it might close off an area that used to be open to you others open up. For example, if you are a level 19 PC that is used to utilizing the Nashkel Foothills (CR16) and you find that it increasing to CR18 makes it too difficult here are all the CR 14 and 15 area's that you might try as alternatives:

Haunted house, level 2 : CR 14
High Moor south : CR 14
Ulgoth's pirate : CR 14
Xvarts : CR 14
Fields of the dead : CR 14 on average
Elder Ogre stronghold : CR 15
Misty forest : CR 15
Gullykin crypt : CR 15
South of Beregost : CR 15

and good news...the below breakdown would seem to indicate regardless of your level you can find area's that are viable for you to utilize at any level, with or without a group! If the CR is less than your CR you just add 2 when solo, 4 in a group while never going over the lowest party members CR and you can figure out any area, should that OOC information be something you find useful.

Distribution :

Level 0-5 areas : 16
Level 5-10 areas : 16
Level 10-15 areas : 15
Level 15-20 areas : 14
Level 20-25 areas : 13
Level 25-30 areas : 5

Hopefully this helps folks with finding the area they will be comfortably safe in, should that be the primary concern with the new system. I still say to give it some time and just explore IC without the OOC details. I think at least many players will find it fun to have a server that they have possibly known for years suddenly have some unknown dangers.

[Hoihe]

Firstly,

Valefort's "CR list" is awfully non-indicative of difficulty. It is challenge rating as intended for pen an paper - encounter for a full party of classic set up. I'm yet to see a level 8 character do orcs - maybe bards can do it. But bards can do everything while naked so they don't count.

Which brings me to my second point! Actually, I'd have posted in 7 hours ago, but the public PC I wrote on lost internet. So... here it goes!

Secondly, as was written 7 hours ago:

Furthermore, you people and I appear to have wildly different ideas on the purpose of end-game equipment and optimized builds.

In short, you want standard content to be challenging despite wearing top-end gear or actively pursuing the most optimal build choices, whereas I see acquisition of top-end gear or optimal building as a way to unlock hardcore content for soloing and to overcome what others are challenged by with breeze.

In long, I praise the form of game design where you balance around the idea that there is a player called Standard Joe, who plays a generic character, who, although unoptimized, is built as the game designers intended. He's definitely not weak, for he didn't make any build choices that would make one raise the question "why?", but he also did not sacrifice the picture he had for more armor/HP/damage/whathave you. He's mediocre and thus standard. Furthermore, Standard Joe has a standard amount of time to dedicate to the game - something you can expect from your target demographic to commit without sacrifices. Finally, Standard Joe understands basic mechanics and tactics, but he has a standard level of OOC experience, so he won't be finding arcane ways to solve issues.

Now, in this form of game design, there exist three forms of content available at every level/level-range. This is a mandatory optional choice for the player - meaning if they wish to progress their character optimally, they must choose from this slew of content, but optional, as they have three ways to go about it.

1. First off, we have Casual/Easy content. Casual/Easy content dictates the experience you deserve for going to new areas, taking on new foes. The loot is rather pitiful, and there are no opportunities to challenge yourself for extra rewards. However, any character barring a 8 strength melee rogue fighting in full plate with a halberd, can solo. The sole purpose of this type of content is to allow people with little time to dedicate to the game to still progress along their peers without risking setbacks. It has a secondary benefit of assisting builds with non-linear power progression to keep up with their peers as well. The punishment is the lack of challenge opportunities and pitiful loot. Average experience is NOT diminished.
2. Secondly, we have standard content. This one can be soloed with moderate risk by our Standard Joe. Casual Jack will run into issues if he doesn't know how to properly itemize or make target priority, but he is also not required to do this form of content, as it provides the same amount of XP as casual content. So why go for standard content over casual? Two things.
   1. Opportunities to challenge oneself arise in form of final bosses or branching,
      OPTIONAL mini-bosses. These opportunities are rewarded with increased experience reward,
      potentially loot as well. These opportunities MAY be too hard for Standard Joe to solo - and that is okay, these are opportunities - thus: optional. This has the added benefit that Hardcore Bill gets to feel accomplishment from tackling challenges others fail at - the purpose of wearing the best gear with optimized build.
   2. The loot is abundant enough that Standard Joe has a good chance to keep wearing gear good enough to continue on to the next level range's standard content by the time he's leveled enough. *this is assuming daily clears of the area,
      rather than active grinding.
3. Thirdly, we have hardcore content, or end-game - depending on whether it is situated at late epics or during character progression. This content is purely optional - you get XP needed from casual, gear needed from standard. The primary purpose of this content is the challenge itself - giving reason for Hardcore Bills to accumulate the best gear possible with the most optimal stats they can achieve to show that they are the best at dungeoneering. But while the challenge itself is in a way reward enough, this form of content is filled with exceptional amount of loot, or have limited loot but with guaranteed quality. Mini-bosses are mandatory to fight, and the final boss cannot be soloed even by the most hardcore of hardcore bills. Most of this content can be tackled by a party of standard joes, or perhaps even a (sub)-standard build, if played by someone who knows their character and the area in and out.

Unfortunately, we lack the development power to produce all three types of content for every level range. As such, by rule we should make sure that there is always STANDARD content available before doing either of the other two. STANDARD content is core content. Casual/Hardcore is luxury content.

This change pushed the entire server indiscriminate if it affected a standard or hardcore or even a casual area greatly towards hardcore. This is not good.

While now those who fall into Hardcore Bill category find themselves savoring the challenge, eventually for them it will become the new norm as people struggle to adapt and take on Hardcore-bill style builds. This kills, at least for me, the reason of being a Hardcore Bill - to be capable of special feats nobody/few others can achieve, either through casually walking through standard content without a scratch, or by soloing hardcore content without requiring special tactics.

Side note: (All of my builds, the Sorc6/dragonW10/EK10/Blood magus4, the Rogue 20/5 divine seeker/5SD, and I'm pretty sure my current one of wizard 17/duelist5/swashbuckler5/shadowdancer 3, have been able to take on VotD/Netherese Maze
with great supply cost and strenous attention from me. This is an example of sub-standard taking on high-end content through special tactics and succeeding. It feels amazing. But it shouldn't be the norm.)

Now, my impression is that in the opinion of Hardcore Bill, there isn't enough Hardcore/high-end content, and for them, being all-powerful in standard content areas gets boring after a while. I understand that issue perfectly. However, the problem is when ALL of standard content gets turned up to be way harder. Sure, take away a few of the areas and make them only accessible through superior effort - maybe by turning multi level dungeons into a progression: deeper you go, harder it gets.

This feels unfair at the moment, that while other than late-epics, there is a lack in Hardcore content, there is always the possibility to tackle higher content without impeding their progress. Can't do the same with standard content - going to lower CR areas leads to slower progress. Furthermore, Avernus/Netherese Maze & the magma golems leading up to it/Vault of the Dead/The Balor/The White dragon/arguably the Illithid Hive all exist late-game to test one's mettle.

However, as to not eschew our new system entirely I have two ideas:


One, the simpler one, is to simply connect it to an on/off switch controlled by whether there is a party on a map or not. After all, a party of Standard Joes should be able to tackle Hardcore content, no?

The more complicated idea would be to still tie it to party size - essentially making parties an "opt-in" for greater challenges and rewards. However, in addition to scaling with party size, it would also be chance based rather than a flat bonus to HD.

Rough sketch of what I think follows.

Code: Select all

CR+0 = Base CR - 2 + 1d2           occuring at W%
CR+1 = Base CR - 3 + 2d2           occuring at X%
CR+2 = Base CR - 3 + 1d2 + 1d3 occuring at Y%
CR+3 = Base CR - 4 + 1d4 + 1d3 occuring at Z%
CR+4 = Base CR - 4 + 1d4 + 2d2 occuring at Zs% 

Where W,X,Y,Z,ZS scale towards Zs as party size increases, starting at a non-zero value once the player is of eligible level.

As final note:

By Standard Gear, I define at most +3 equipment. Yes, +4 equipment became more abundant now than it did years ago, but it's rare and expensive. +4 gear should give you a boost, while +3 should make you on par.

[Face]

Firstly,

Valefort's "CR list" is awfully non-indicative of difficulty. It is challenge rating as intended for pen an paper - encounter for a full party of classic set up. I'm yet to see a level 8 character do orcs - maybe bards can do it. But bards can do everything while naked so they don't count.

Which brings me to my second point! Actually, I'd have posted in 7 hours ago, but the public PC I wrote on lost internet. So... here it goes!

Secondly, as was written 7 hours ago:

Furthermore, you people and I appear to have wildly different ideas on the purpose of end-game equipment and optimized builds.

In short, you want standard content to be challenging despite wearing top-end gear or actively pursuing the most optimal build choices, whereas I see acquisition of top-end gear or optimal building as a way to unlock hardcore content for soloing and to overcome what others are challenged by with breeze.

In long, I praise the form of game design where you balance around the idea that there is a player called Standard Joe, who plays a generic character, who, although unoptimized, is built as the game designers intended. He's definitely not weak, for he didn't make any build choices that would make one raise the question "why?", but he also did not sacrifice the picture he had for more armor/HP/damage/whathave you. He's mediocre and thus standard. Furthermore, Standard Joe has a standard amount of time to dedicate to the game - something you can expect from your target demographic to commit without sacrifices. Finally, Standard Joe understands basic mechanics and tactics, but he has a standard level of OOC experience, so he won't be finding arcane ways to solve issues.

Now, in this form of game design, there exist three forms of content available at every level/level-range. This is a mandatory optional choice for the player - meaning if they wish to progress their character optimally, they must choose from this slew of content, but optional, as they have three ways to go about it.

1. First off, we have Casual/Easy content. Casual/Easy content dictates the experience you deserve for going to new areas, taking on new foes. The loot is rather pitiful, and there are no opportunities to challenge yourself for extra rewards. However, any character barring a 8 strength melee rogue fighting in full plate with a halberd, can solo. The sole purpose of this type of content is to allow people with little time to dedicate to the game to still progress along their peers without risking setbacks. It has a secondary benefit of assisting builds with non-linear power progression to keep up with their peers as well. The punishment is the lack of challenge opportunities and pitiful loot. Average experience is NOT diminished.
2. Secondly, we have standard content. This one can be soloed with moderate risk by our Standard Joe. Casual Jack will run into issues if he doesn't know how to properly itemize or make target priority, but he is also not required to do this form of content, as it provides the same amount of XP as casual content. So why go for standard content over casual? Two things.
   1. Opportunities to challenge oneself arise in form of final bosses or branching,
      OPTIONAL mini-bosses. These opportunities are rewarded with increased experience reward,
      potentially loot as well. These opportunities MAY be too hard for Standard Joe to solo - and that is okay, these are opportunities - thus: optional. This has the added benefit that Hardcore Bill gets to feel accomplishment from tackling challenges others fail at - the purpose of wearing the best gear with optimized build.
   2. The loot is abundant enough that Standard Joe has a good chance to keep wearing gear good enough to continue on to the next level range's standard content by the time he's leveled enough. *this is assuming daily clears of the area,
      rather than active grinding.
3. Thirdly, we have hardcore content, or end-game - depending on whether it is situated at late epics or during character progression. This content is purely optional - you get XP needed from casual, gear needed from standard. The primary purpose of this content is the challenge itself - giving reason for Hardcore Bills to accumulate the best gear possible with the most optimal stats they can achieve to show that they are the best at dungeoneering. But while the challenge itself is in a way reward enough, this form of content is filled with exceptional amount of loot, or have limited loot but with guaranteed quality. Mini-bosses are mandatory to fight, and the final boss cannot be soloed even by the most hardcore of hardcore bills. Most of this content can be tackled by a party of standard joes, or perhaps even a (sub)-standard build, if played by someone who knows their character and the area in and out.

Unfortunately, we lack the development power to produce all three types of content for every level range. As such, by rule we should make sure that there is always STANDARD content available before doing either of the other two. STANDARD content is core content. Casual/Hardcore is luxury content.

This change pushed the entire server indiscriminate if it affected a standard or hardcore or even a casual area greatly towards hardcore. This is not good.

While now those who fall into Hardcore Bill category find themselves savoring the challenge, eventually for them it will become the new norm as people struggle to adapt and take on Hardcore-bill style builds. This kills, at least for me, the reason of being a Hardcore Bill - to be capable of special feats nobody/few others can achieve, either through casually walking through standard content without a scratch, or by soloing hardcore content without requiring special tactics.

Side note: (All of my builds, the Sorc6/dragonW10/EK10/Blood magus4, the Rogue 20/5 divine seeker/5SD, and I'm pretty sure my current one of wizard 17/duelist5/swashbuckler5/shadowdancer 3, have been able to take on VotD/Netherese Maze
with great supply cost and strenous attention from me. This is an example of sub-standard taking on high-end content through special tactics and succeeding. It feels amazing. But it shouldn't be the norm.)

Now, my impression is that in the opinion of Hardcore Bill, there isn't enough Hardcore/high-end content, and for them, being all-powerful in standard content areas gets boring after a while. I understand that issue perfectly. However, the problem is when ALL of standard content gets turned up to be way harder. Sure, take away a few of the areas and make them only accessible through superior effort - maybe by turning multi level dungeons into a progression: deeper you go, harder it gets.

This feels unfair at the moment, that while other than late-epics, there is a lack in Hardcore content, there is always the possibility to tackle higher content without impeding their progress. Can't do the same with standard content - going to lower CR areas leads to slower progress. Furthermore, Avernus/Netherese Maze & the magma golems leading up to it/Vault of the Dead/The Balor/The White dragon/arguably the Illithid Hive all exist late-game to test one's mettle.

However, as to not eschew our new system entirely I have two ideas:


One, the simpler one, is to simply connect it to an on/off switch controlled by whether there is a party on a map or not. After all, a party of Standard Joes should be able to tackle Hardcore content, no?

The more complicated idea would be to still tie it to party size - essentially making parties an "opt-in" for greater challenges and rewards. However, in addition to scaling with party size, it would also be chance based rather than a flat bonus to HD.

Rough sketch of what I think follows.

Code: Select all

CR+0 = Base CR - 2 + 1d2           occuring at W%
CR+1 = Base CR - 3 + 2d2           occuring at X%
CR+2 = Base CR - 3 + 1d2 + 1d3 occuring at Y%
CR+3 = Base CR - 4 + 1d4 + 1d3 occuring at Z%
CR+4 = Base CR - 4 + 1d4 + 2d2 occuring at Zs% 

Where W,X,Y,Z,ZS scale towards Zs as party size increases, starting at a non-zero value once the player is of eligible level.

As final note:

By Standard Gear, I define at most +3 equipment. Yes, +4 equipment became more abundant now than it did years ago, but it's rare and expensive. +4 gear should give you a boost, while +3 should make you on par.

Relax you dont have to go into a dungeon , You can level nice and fast with rp xp at a tavern.

[Hoihe]

Real mature, face. Real mature. Rather than respond to arguments given, shit on me with ad hominem.

Real mature. Especially considering I took the effort to look at it from the opposition's vantage point as well. I'm impressed. Truly.

[aaron22]

firstly: hoihe, that was dangerously close to a TL/DR.
second: have you tried this yet? because i have not experienced anything to my gameplay that is a huge change except that i cannot take every encounter for granted. that around the next corner could be a real problem. that i need to make sure i have a solid escape plan at all times. sounds like cool dnd stuff and a much needed injection of "less predictable" danger to the server.

not feeling your hate here on this.

[papainhell]

Love the dynamic spawns!

Concur with expanding it to have a chance to spawn epic encounters.

Would also like to see more random encounter spawns that scale from CR5 to CR30. The type you see when you're about lvl 10-12 but never see them again. (Only seen from Bergost to FAI on the Trade Way that I've seen)

[ShortRedandLoud]

I have enjoyed this change thus far.

Hoihe, you might be overestimating the level of additional challenge this actually provides, I suggest you try it a bit longer.

[chad878262]

I still don't see how Dynamic CR scaling pushed the entire server to hardcore Hoihe. If you are level 10 you can go to a CR 6 area solo and the max it will spawn is CR8 creatures, XP (and possibly loot in the future) will be based on CR8. If you are a casual player or are playing a bit of a rough build you can always go to a CR 5 or even 4 area and still get ok XP if the scaled spawns are now 6/7. If you're hardcore you can go to a CR8-10 area and get CR10 spawns. I'm not seeing how the system is favoring one play style over another. If anything it simply makes it so you can use area's longer if you are taking them on when they are at your CR since for a couple of levels the areas will scale alongside. However, for solo play it's highly unlikely that most builds can solo area's equivalent to their CR. Either requires a very skilled player with a strong build or twinked/OP gear. So in most cases, at worst the casual player or the one that doesn't want any risk, but still wants to solo dungeons need only select area's with CR's 4-6 below the PC's and they will get the same experience they had before the change.


That said, it's possible your idea for possible variations would work just as well or better, I honestly don't know and will leave it to devs. On the surface it looks a fair bit more complicated and I tend to want to keep things simple where possible, but I have zero ability with development and scripting.

[Steve]

Alright Hoihe, choose a up-to-Lvl 5 build, and I'll start it at Lvl 1 without any twinking, and tell you how many times it dies or what completely unfair and ridiculous challenges it faces, in the process of Leveling (if any).

If that would satisfy your feelings that the dynamic spawns are going to ruin your and everyone else's game experience. Which I doubt.

The worse, and I mean the WORSE thing that can happen with this system, is your Toon dies. Which, shall I need to remind you, means absolutely nothing. Sure, maybe it means you'll have to give 2+ hours of your Real Life to re-acquire those lost Experience Points, but c'mon man! You already put in tons of hours on the game, what a few more?!?

In exchange for what may amount to a few handful of hours per month in regaining XP, EVERYONE gains:

- random challenge
- more XP on kills
- possibly better rewards in loot (if your toon survives)
- the NEED for adventuring parties to work together
- RP around the difficulties faced, which can be a bonding experience for our Characters

I would say the potential loss is very worth the gain. Though you may still disagree, do present a build and a type of play that you think is going to now be impossible, and I'll play it out, for you to see what the real outcome of that play, is.

[Face]

Real mature, face. Real mature. Rather than respond to arguments given, (#2) on me with ad hominem.

Real mature. Especially considering I took the effort to look at it from the opposition's vantage point as well. I'm impressed. Truly.

I wont lie but i only half read that wall of text after i seen the first mention of 'hardcore'.
But as you can see every one and there mom are loving this so far so how about you just relax and give it a go?

[Kaden Asen]

Lets take a trip back in time and remember a long ago server on NWN. Escape from The Underdark

Brilliant server, it started at level one and I'm not sure I saw anyone progress past level 12. ((which made them uber levels)) Great server, it really captured the edgy and desperate feel of being trapped in the UD. Thing thing I think really added to it's charm and feel was that the spawning system.

Unlike our server once you stepped outside the "town" it was anything goes. You may run across a peaceful herd of what ever they have down there. . .or a Deep Cave Lizard. . .a Deep Lurker, a hunting ilithid or even a full drow raid. It captured the setting beautifully, because if creating a setting where you needed to RP. The difficulty of the server forced people to play their part. . .leaving the city was risky, so you prepared and almost never did so alone. You took a scout. . .because who wants to be caught off guard? You took healers, because pain hurts, and you took warriors because someone had to hold the line. It was brilliant, edgy and presented the oppressive nature of The Underdark! The dungeons were very similar to our own, with spawns that scaled with to match those challenging them.

This was a -very- difficult server to play on, requiring a different mind set than cookie cutter servers. Which I believe is the foundation for creating a -great- RP experience. Some characters are created, written and played to be a expert in combat. . .but there is rarely a need for such characters because almost anyone can make the cut. Now it'll be a bit different, characters who plan, scout, and take precautions will become a valuable part of any party. Scouts will become needed on dungeon crawls instead of just DM events. The same goes for healers and support characters. With the unknown situations, you will want to have the back up. . .creating a need to RP, rather than grind.

+1 to the new system

[NegInfinity]

Firstly,

Valefort's "CR list" is awfully non-indicative of difficulty. ...

I think that the idea that there should be some sort of tailored difficulty and an "advancement road" for your character (average joe, hardcore joe, whatever joe) is wrong and belongs to MMOs.

Basically, the character is not supposed to automatically win, get to level 30 or whatever. Instead the player is supposed to use their brain and figure out how to get the character there.

[Wolfrayne]

Honestly the only problem i have with it at the moment is that it does nothing for level 30 characters... they really should have an increased loot even if its a little gold. Bonus XP is great and all right up until you cant get anymore anyway.