Muleing / Twinking discussion

[Steve]

To twink or not to twink...that is the question!!!


Whether 'tis nobler in the mind to suffer
The slings and arrows of outrageous fortune
Or to take arms against a sea of troubles...


lol...I just couldn't resist...but by the Gods, so dead on....

[AC81]

Why is this needed? If you don't want to mule/twink, just don't do it. Pretty easy.

way to skip the comments and go straight for your opinion. I answered why, and it doesn't have to do with muling, it has to do with the economy.

The economy is ruined by infinite gold/items. This problem is enhanced by the removal of the item level restriction. Muling has zero bearing on economy if these two issues could be fixed.

Muling has no negative impact on player enjoyment.

So attempting to shut muling down without addressing other concerns seems silly. And like I said before my crazy opinion got in the way - ban muling, but it will still happen. So, yeah, lots of effort for no difference.

[NeOmega]

the economy has been discussed many times and the problem is that server economy is unlike any real world ideas. concepts fall apart when the variables of available and static currency are infinity.

cool. been here since 2012. Understood the GAME economy very, very well. At times, 1/3 of the items in auction were from my characters.

I also immediately knew which potions would sell, and for what price, when master alchemist went live.

I almost always got my auction price. I'd sell items for 10,000 that i know most people did not understand why.

i have played over 50 unique builds, and know wishlists for tons of builds/classes.

It doesnt take a genius to know +4 items are worth a lot. But why would a greatsword with 1d10 mass crits and +2 neg energy damage be worth 25,000?

in other words, i am not talking theory based on my college economics classes. I am talking "reality" in the realm of bgtscc.

[NeOmega]

Why is this needed? If you don't want to mule/twink, just don't do it. Pretty easy.

way to skip the comments and go straight for your opinion. I answered why, and it doesn't have to do with muling, it has to do with the economy.

The economy is ruined by infinite gold/items. This problem is enhanced by the removal of the item level restriction. Muling has zero bearing on economy if these two issues could be fixed.

Muling has no negative impact on player enjoyment.

So attempting to shut muling down without addressing other concerns seems silly. And like I said before my crazy opinion got in the way - ban muling, but it will still happen. So, yeah, lots of effort for no difference.

i am not advocating banning muling. way to skip the thread before voicing your opinion.



but muling is exacerbating other economic problems.


(and i disagree infinite gold is a problem, but that is another topic)

[AC81]

I'm not 'skipping the thread', I'm responding to the thread title and the OP's desire to have muling banned or at least frowned upon. My thoughts are that banning muling or frowning upon it are useless because in one form or another it will happen anyway. I think muling may have a MINOR effect on server economy but the following have far larger effects:
Infinite gold
Item level caps
Epic stores
No consequences for death

That being said I don't particularly want any of the above changed (maybe item level caps). I don't think muling is a big deal, nor do I think it impacts player enjoyment. Thus my point, if you don't like muling, then don't do it. It's a player choice - just like permadeath or any other multitude of ooc decisions we as players make for our characters.

[Hawke]

It doesnt take a genius to know +4 items are worth a lot. But why would a greatsword with 1d10 mass crits and +2 neg energy damage be worth 25,000?

Perhaps, due to the fact that Gishes can have +5 to their weapons, and that kind of bonus damage is worthwhile.

Heck, not even just gishes,,, but pure mages.

[Wolfrayne]

Actually i think if we expanded on the auction system some it might help. More items on the list means more people trying to compete meaning prices will go down on a lot of things.

[Calodan]

It doesnt take a genius to know +4 items are worth a lot. But why would a greatsword with 1d10 mass crits and +2 neg energy damage be worth 25,000?

Perhaps, due to the fact that Gishes can have +5 to their weapons, and that kind of bonus damage is worthwhile.

Heck, not even just gishes,,, but pure mages.

Heck not even. EVERYONE. Use Elixirs and Potions peoples!!!! Elixir can give you +4 EB!!!! Pot of Greater Magic Weapon can give up to +3!!! This is amazing for any build. Especially low level ones! That greatsword is great! I have a +2 Blunt +2 Sonic Keen Spear on Kory in areas where things are squishy and can be critically hit.....Would use that with any spear build really since as I stated above works......The fact remains that weapons with extra damages are king in the item world because things like EB are a easier fix than the extra damages.

[NegInfinity]

Wherever possible I choose to play without muleing / twinking. If there is no IC reason, or

The problem is time.

Back when I started playing it took me a few months to get full +3 equipment set. It didn't really feel fun back then, and didnt' make much sense either.

Also, even though things became simpler now, I do not have this amount of time to invest into finding some damn item.

For example, few months ago a reequiper script ate my equipment along with a fairly boring strength belt. I still haven't been able to replace the belt. A short while ago, same script was responsible for loss of another set of +3 equipment, this time with a fairly rare "Greater Amulet of Protected Dalliances" (+3 nat armor +3 cha), which I personally ever saw once. Guess I'm never seeing a replacement again. Hunting for the replacement items even in this case mostly just wastes time which could be spent playing the character.

I see items I acquired as a result of the time I invested in the server. Along with XP and gold.

For progressing every time from scratch (find everything and buy everything), bgtscc lacks a good way of obtaining items. Every time you need something, you need to dive into auction forum which feels OOC and as if events there happen on a different plane of existence. Interacting with that thread does not give impression that it happens in the game world. Meanwhile on, for example, sigil, acquiring items meant interacting with merchant in the game, in character, paying them. I really liked the bazaar with merchants on sigil....

Anyway, the standard set of equipment for bgtscc is +3 items, which includes dodge boots. This equipment is not really available in the shops. You CAN find +3 armor and weapons, but there's only one place with a +3 ring on sale (for 50k gold, I believe), the rest simply isn't in stores, or is incredibly well hidden. For example, Candlekeep doesn't have +3 protection rings on sale. Or +3 nat armor amulets. Or those boots.

Unless the inconvenience of having to deal with auction thread was replaced with IC/IG mechanics with actual merchants at the moment I feel like bgtscc needs muling. Due to slow progression and difficulty obtaining default equipment.

[NegInfinity]

My original post was to find out peoples opinions and from those that have posted it seems the majority would prefer to have no muleing but some do like to do it. Despite some of the comments I did not ask for it to be banned. But I would like the rule to be "we would prefer you don't but wont stop you if you do". As it is now its a bit of a metaproblem for lack of a better term.

For item restrictions I had this idea.

Code: Select all

Power Tier Item Restriction
This system is based on the idea that there a several tiers of play. In this example we will use 3 tiers, but the system could be configured to use as many as desired.

When the ‘loot system’ spawns an item it is assigned a tier based on how powerful/rare the item is. The easiest way to do this is to base the tier on the ‘loot table’ the item comes from. This means the loot tables must be configured to use the tier system, but has the advantage that no additional scripting is required to value the item.

**It would be worth adding the items tier to its name/description.**

When a player equips an item the item is checked against its tier and the characters level, if his level to too low to use the item the script unequips the item automatically. For the example 3 tiers the power level would be configured as follows;
Tier 1 (CL 1-10) +1/+2 items
Tier 2 (CL 11-20) +3/+4 items
Tier 3 (CL 21-30) Better than +4 items

I don’t think the check applies to the DM client but it’s easy to exempt them from the check.

One advantage of this system is that it would not affect any existing items, so the current player base is unaffected and cannot complain about not being able to use their items. These items would eventually leave circulation and would not impact on the system.

Note: crafting / shops / item storage / auction may need some scripting / item tags adding

Tiers belong to mmos and mmos are inferior to what bgtscc is supposed to be. I don't want tiers.

There were level-restricted items before, it was a horrible idea that wasted time. Also, it is very amusing to have a character that spent years training in heavy armor, only to find himself/herself unable to use mundane fullplate from store, because it has level restriction on it. Then there were situatiosn where changing appearnace of something could make it unusable.

[RaiderOne]

Tiers belong to mmos and mmos are inferior to what bgtscc is supposed to be. I don't want tiers.

There were level-restricted items before, it was a horrible idea that wasted time. Also, it is very amusing to have a character that spent years training in heavy armor, only to find himself/herself unable to use mundane fullplate from store, because it has level restriction on it. Then there were situatiosn where changing appearnace of something could make it unusable.

It was just an example of how you can do ILR instead of using the default game option but without the need for mass scripts/coding outside of the base game engine. I personally don't like ILR.

[Thorsson]

If good items weren't so hard to get then nobody would need to mule. Basically one decision - making good gear very rare - led to another - allowing twinking. The first decision is wrong, as I've said before, because it puts up a bar against new entrants.

More good stuff should be available in shops, and then the problems is not so big any more.

[RaiderOne]

If good items weren't so hard to get then nobody would need to mule. Basically one decision - making good gear very rare - led to another - allowing twinking. The first decision is wrong, as I've said before, because it puts up a bar against new entrants.

More good stuff should be available in shops, and then the problems is not so big any more.

Good is defined by the need for that item, not the mechanical components of its +++

If the monsters/game requires you to need +4 items to survive then those items are good. Its easy enough to change the required amount and move the 'good item' goal post.

But if you decide to give 'good items' to everyone whats the point in the lesser items in the first place or the need to find other items? I think this approach just makes you run around in circles and solves nothing.

I've been playing on the server for about 4/5 weeks. I found a +3 chainmail in the BG graveyard at level 2, brought a +4 sword from the auction at level 10, and have numerous other things that I have found or brought. Its not hard to get equipment thats good and will let a character survive a large portion of the server. I'm level 14 fighter and have 37AC, at this point most stuff in my CR range can only hit me on 20s. I would call that very good.

[Thorsson]

At level 14 these items are very powerful. They don't scale.

+4 weapons are quite common; other stuff less so.

The good items would be in shops and you would need gold to get them. You don't "give" them to anyone. They are still earned. Just no lottery and hopefully no grandfathered items either.

[RaiderOne]

At level 14 these items are very powerful. They don't scale. The good items would be in shops and you would need gold to get them. You don't "give" them to anyone. They are still earned. Just no lottery and hopefully no grandfathered items either.

My point is that no one gave me these things and I was able to find or acquire them all IC with no muleing/twinking or friends on this server to help me.

At some point the game has to become challenging that a single player cannot walk through any idea he chooses without consequence. That end game content is always +2 above the players and forces them to group (or whatever it actually is) is a normal design decision for games of this type.

That being said I do think that BG city should have traders representative of its prominence within the setting. That the random merchant at Ulgoths or another small town sells +2/+3 stuff and the BG smith has nothing but mundane is strange. It would be nice for these merchants to have some random nice things at random time periods, though that would need some tweaking to stop a mad rush to see whats in the shops.

More needs to be done for BG players to use BG city, other than new players in the farmlands area its a ghost town. Which is very wrong IMO since it should be a focal point of the server (hence the name).