there needs to be high level sneak maps, (mid level even)

[NeOmega]

i read a while ago, there are basically no high level sneaks, or areas full of them because people dont like being backstabbed. when i first started this server, i started my favorite class type, rogueish shadowdancer-ish. i did a few of them, and got a feeling, that this game, like all swords and sorcery games favors fighter types. well, this server is a bit better, as it seems to favor casters, particularly divine casters because they can deck out in armor.

so yeah, people dont like being backstabbed, so no high level backstab/death touch enemies, and definitely no HIPS enemies who backstab and blend away before you get your third swing in.

Whew! good. this game was designed to favor fighters anddivine casters,right? so if we dont like being backstabbed, simply make sure no enemies can do so, and definitely not that silly HIPS stuff with multiple backstabs.

Now rogues etc, will still have to try o go toe to toe with hill giants and wyverns... but thank god clerics dont have to face high level sneaks!!

so basically, what i am saying is rogues, rangers and monks get useless feats as they progress, be ause they are counter-sneak measures. They get feats where they cant be caught flat footed, where they cant be bacstabbed, etc.... ...but fighters and clerics and wizards dont like rogue enemies, especially hipsters, because... ...they expose and exploit their weaknesses. its almost as if they formed a council, consulted the devs, and simply had mid and high level sneak enemies banished from abier-torriel, because they dont like getting backstabbed, and enemies fading away before they are killed, maybe even heal g up then striking back. that would be dirty, dirty bad fighting, so the ckerics, bards, fighters, frenzied berserkers and mages got together, conculted their gods, who then talked to the devs about it, and viola, no more sneaky bad guys on the sword coast. especially not hipsters.

a rogue types weakness is he is not the best fighter, sucks at fending off magic, (esp will and fortitude) so why must every battle for him be difficult? why dont fighters and clerics eber have areas that expose their weaknesss, where they take a back seat, and the rogues and rangers and monks show the way forward?

bssically, every map is a cleric / fighter map. the traps are weak, the chests are bashable, enemies never hips, and hardly even backstab well. isnt the last time you even face backstabs is in the cloakwood mines, maybe one or two batiri near corm orp?

rogues and rangers and monks dont like being backstabbed either, thats why they get feats to help avoid them, and can invest in spot and listen to ferret them out, and some rogues can hide in shadows as well tomavoid sneak attacks.

if there were more maps with treacherous sneak enemies, and HIPSing enemies, frenzied berzerker weapon masters and favored souls and freakin bards and clerics wouldnt be the most powerful classes.

[chad878262]

I once got death attacked by a Yuan Ti Assassin when I didn't have PfE up...nice little trip to the fugue. Point being there is at least one high CR area where you can absolutely be death attacked. I believe the DC was low-to-mid 20's IIRC so about what a player Assassin would have.

[NeOmega]

My point is nobody fears sneak attackers because there are none.

Rogues don't like getting paralyzed by carrion crawlers and ghasts (for most of my rogue builds, a ghast was the kiss of death, it was just game over, period. and a carrion crawler was terrifying). So when do rogues get to consult their gods, petition to have ghasts and carrion crawlers banned from the sword coast, and then have the gods contact the devs and make it so?

What I am saying, is, and I believe this to be the case, is that sneaks, especially HIPSing sneaks (is there even ONE HIPSter sneak enemy, anywhere?) were thought to be too annoying, too deadly, so they were just removed. This isn't fair really. It takes the true terror of clerics, fighters, barbarians, and mages... ...and just simply makes it vanish.

Imagine this:
sneaks are introduced into many levels, some of them HIPSing.
There would be an OUTRAGE. THEY ARE TOO DEADLY! TOO STRONK! THEY KILLED ME!
Yeah, they did, that is because everybody is playing classes with a glaring weak spot against assassins. Instead of letting those weaknesses be a problem, devs just removed the cause of weaknesses, therefore, without sneak enemies, many classes just simply have no *real* weaknesses! You just need a tank and an armored caster/buffer, and you are good for anywhere. You don't need a rogue, you hardly need a mage. If there were sneak enemies, and they were as plentiful as fighters and caster enemies... ..now you need a rogue, or ranger, or something to help you out. Now balance is brought to the server. Now you actually NEED someone to help with the sneak enemies... ..not have a rogue tag along to inconvenience you by slowing the party down by disabling traps a dwarf would rather just run over and get it over with. Not have a rogue tag along so it can feel useful by opening a treasure chest, which is basically the way it is now. You would NEED them.

And one or two sneaks in MOST (note, not 3 out of 50+, like it is now) areas would be enough to put the fear of god into most builds not equipped for handling sneaks (favored souls, bards, barbarians, clerics, mages, etc). That solo trip would be as deadly for a dwarven fighter as every trip is for a rogue to solo.

Add to that some areas with just one HIPSing sneak, and now you have an actual NEED to party with a rogue or counter-sneak type. Maybe even areas that only sometimes have a HIPSing sneak. The threat alone would cause reconsideration of soloing areas.

Instead of getting a counter assassin to party up, fighters etc just solo everything. The world is their oyster, because their worst weakness, has been removed completely from the game. (try soloing a rogue without HIPS, every battle is 5 minutes long for something a fighter finishes in 20 seconds. It is that terrible. Even with HIPS, HIPSters often take massive damage and spend half the time using healpacks to try to finish off any enemy, that high BABers slaughter in seconds. I've played both sides extensively.).

So rogues etc, have all kinds of weaknesses, one of the worst being toe to toe battle with fighters and barbarians. Fighters and barbarians, on the other hand, to balance it out, have a weakness, they are easy prey for backstabs. They cant see, they cant hear. But that weakness doesn't exist here, it is unbalanced.

Nobody actually needs a rogue in their group, or a counter assassin type like a ranger or monk. Why? Because sneak enemies don't exist.

Why are bandits weaker than kobolds? Are there no mid level bandits on the sword coast? No mid level or even master thieves and assassins? Are all thieves guilds made up of bandit mages, bards and spearmen? No! They actually are packed with rogues, cutthroats and assassins! It was an OOC decision, to essentially satisfy fighter and cleric powerbuilders. They noted their builds had weaknesses, and instead of accepting it, they just had the weakness vanished away. How convenient!

[Kaden Asen]

Why are bandits weaker than kobolds? Are there no mid level bandits on the sword coast? No mid level or even master thieves and assassins? Are all thieves guilds made up of bandit mages, bards and spearmen? No! They actually are packed with rogues, cutthroats and assassins! It was an OOC decision, to essentially satisfy fighter and cleric powerbuilders. They noted their builds had weaknesses, and instead of accepting it, they just had the weakness vanished away. How convenient!

So you were around for the hours of effort that went into this process? I've seen the server change over several years now and I think the staff has done an outstanding l job at balancing things.

That solo trip would be as deadly for a dwarven fighter as every trip is for a rogue to solo.

Dwarven Defenders are immune to sneak attacks?

As for the rest of the rant, I disagree. Most builds here would deal with sneaks out of hand, many of the classes you are complaining about have spells that make them immune to sneak/crits anyhow. So no, it won't "Put the fear of God" into people. What it will do is drive up the ooc difficulty of the server. How many people here know how to actively target and take down a shadow dancer? Not many I'm willing to wager. People would have to relearn how to play several functions within the game.

Lastly, it's a rant about how the builders played favorites, how the staff catered to themselves and friends and in short how unimaginative those responsible for this popular server seem to be. To this, I will say -false-.

The builders/Devs here have spent years tweaking this server into the amazing place it is today. Bravo and well done!

[Brother Bruce]

Making a whole lot of assumptions here...

[Nemni]

First off there are already sneaking enemies. Yuanti assassins, invisible stalkers. Secondly I don't thing rogue types are the best to deal with them; their spot is typically not that great due to their low wisdom, and uncanny dodge only gets you so far when your AC is still lowish. Thirdly I don't get why people keep saying traps are weak, they can often deal at least as much damage as an enemy, and if they are divine you can't resist them at all. I've seen plenty people die to traps.
You don't need a rogue in a group, but you don't need anyone. Still rogues are more useful than most.

[izzul]

try the sneaking driders in the wild..they are nice in the UD..

try first, when two sneakers driders + 2 arcane caster + 1 clerical caster jump on you in every corner. this a fun experience to have.

[NeOmega]

Lastly, it's a rant about how the builders played favorites, how the staff catered to themselves and friends and in short how unimaginative those responsible for this popular server seem to be. To this, I will say -false-.

No, you are misunderstanding. It wasn't intentionally playing favorites. It was just unknown to them that they were essentially making already strong builds stronger, by eliminating their glaring weakness from the server.

First off there are already sneaking enemies. Yuanti assassins, invisible stalkers

But why aren't there sneakers on many more maps. Almost all maps have fighters, most maps have casters... ...and yet like 3 maps have sneakers.

and yeah people die to traps, especially rogues. The irony.

many of the classes you are complaining about have spells that make them immune to sneak/crits anyhow

Not fighters or barbarians or weapon master frenzied berserkers....
and yeah, casters can cast just about anything to deal with just about anything. Hence the beauty of being a caster. But if it forced a favored soul to spend a spell slot on sneak aversion, or a bard, it would nerf them a bit. See how that works? One of the reasons they are OP is because ethey do not have to worry about sneakers.

What it will do is drive up the ooc difficulty of the server.

How is that OOC? How would putting sneak attackers in the world of the sword coast be OOC? Right, the shadowthieves of amn... loading screen message says they are everywhere... they just don't have any sneakers, I guess. Just rogue bards and rogue fighters and rogue mages... because rogue sneak attackers would be OOC....

People would have to relearn how to play several functions within the game.

[/quote][/quote]

So what?

their spot is typically not that great due to their low wisdom

wisdom doesn't matter to rogues. rogues and rangers spot is low because there are no sneakers, so very few invest in it. rogues don't need wisdom to boost their spot... they have so many skill points they don't know what to spend them on usually.

[Valefort]

As was pointed this is largely incorrect. Also please ... conspiracy theory route, the server has had so many developers along the years, a master plan to remove all sneaks from PvE ?

Sneaking monsters do exist anyway, however it's true that they're not very numerous. Maybe a couple monsters/bandits will be added but few.

They'll start from stealth but won't be given HiPS as it amounts to a gigantic AB boost for them. Why ? Because the AI HiPS and attacks instantly each time, detection mechanics don't have the time to kick in (it's a demonstration of how broken HiPS is).

I suggest trying to fight the greater invisible stalkers in the high moor troll cave to see how painful it is to fight HiPSing monsters, and those ones weren't given sneak dices.

[NeOmega]

As was pointed this is largely incorrect. Also please ... conspiracy theory route, the server has had so many developers along the years, a master plan to remove all sneaks from PvE ?
.

As I said, it was not intentional.
I tried to explain it by talking about the characters asking their gods to remove sneaks. get it. There are no Gods in the real world, and the Gods in the virtual world cant talk to coders.

Rogues get low BAB (compared ot fighters and clerics, etc, who can buff or start with high BAB)... ...so should there be lowered AC's for monsters because rogues cant hit them? Then why were sneaks removed just because they messed up fighters and clerics and mages?

Oh yeah, I have lots of powerbuild fighters and clerics etc... ...there isnt anything wrong with it. It's just one of the reasons they are powerbuilds, because the sneak danger is non-existent.

I suggest trying to fight the greater invisible stalkers in the high moor troll cave to see how painful it is to fight HiPSing monsters, and those ones weren't given sneak dices.

Oh, that one map? Should I try it with a ranger, or a barbarian or a cleric, or a HIPSter?

Futhermore, there are no areas that really have good sneakers. If clerics and barbarians and fighters and mages didn't want to go to those, they wouldn't have to. right? It's like rogues don't go to the fields of the dead. Rogues got a lot of areas pretty much off limits to solo. (I cant think of any areas up to level 20 that are just dead off limits to casters or fighters, but I assume the pattern continues.. some areas off limits to rogue, no areas deadly for clerics and fighters... ) So why would it be bad that there are areas that some classes could survive, and other classes, not so much? Rogues gotta stay away from some areas. So do mages. Why is it armored and casters have no areas off limits?

Oh yeah, because their one weakness was removed from the server.

If sneaks were added, and heavily, rogues, say no problem, they got skill points. Rogues just pump up spot and listen. Clerics and fighters are generally babying their skill points. Now they would have to tone the powerbuild down a bit, to deal with the threat of sneaks, or avoid sneak areas. Now clerics are forced ot choose between lore religion and spot and concentration or listen. See how that works? It's just one of many reasons why certain classes are OP.

You cant just cut out an essential part of the game, and expect everything to balance. Everybody else (game companies) do it too, players can backstab, but enemies can't, and what happens to every fantasy game? Fer some reason, cant tell why, we try to balance, but every time, gosh darn it... ..Frenzied berserker Black Orc Battle Axe weaponmasters are the best builds. No matter what the game is. They can go anywhere and kill anything with impunity. This server has the magic going pretty good, so casters have a chance. But most game developers nerf both magic and backstab enemies because the deaths seem "too quick" or "too hard" or "too unfair"... ..and then low and behold, the black orc frenzied berserker massive battle axe wielder is the best build.

I mean, imagine if everybody hated the magic casters. Imagine that caster enemies played for real, and cast real spells, like finger of death spam or whatever. So then, caster enemies were eliminated, because some people didn't like it. What would happen? Suddenly classes that feared casters, would get a stealth power boost. They would no longer have to fear casters. Now they can breathe, and walk freely. It's no longer dangerous to them.

Sneakers are an essential element of class balance, and they were removed. It's like rock paper scissors with the scissors removed. Why all the paper powerbuilds?

[Valefort]

The monsters do have low AC (and high HP), and one of the reasons is for Rogue types to be able to hit them. Also I have to repeat since you insist ... sneaks were never removed, they are present, more scarcely than fighters or casters sure but present. A couple more should be added, point taken, no need for a huge rant !

[NeOmega]

The monsters do have low AC (and high HP), and one of the reasons is for Rogue types to be able to hit them. Also I have to repeat since you insist ... sneaks were never removed, they are present, more scarcely than fighters or casters sure but present. A couple more should be added, point taken, no need for a huge rant !

I'll explain the rant, because it finally dawned on me what the problem was.

Have you ever, ever, ever played a fantasy game, where the rogues and mages were OP, and the fighters were "Meh" to weak?

If so, I'd love to play it. As would the rest of the world.

Have you ever played a game where enemies sneak attacked often?

The two are related.

[NeOmega]

another drastic thought experiment. Say NeOmega takes over BGTSCC design, and just puts in brutal sneaks in every level tomorrow. For a few weeks, the character build forums go on their merry way, you want a frenzied berserker gray orc (gray orcs can smell, but yeah, you know what I mean) with massive HP and STR 28. Still the ultimate powerbuild. But after a few months, what do people start saying... "yeah, its an Ok build, but it has no defenses against sneaks, and the server is full of them..."

"That's a good build, but you'll need to bring along a bard or ranger with good spot, to help reveal sneak attackers before they get you...."

"yeah, he can smack pretty good, but you'll not be getting the first hit in. Pray the sneaks don't get a critical shot"

[Steve]

Have you ever, ever, ever played a fantasy game, where the rogues and mages were OP, and the fighters were "Meh" to weak?

Yeah, it’s called BGTSCC! LOL. A 16d6 assassin on BGTSCC will tear you up, mate. And don’t even get me started on how a high DC mage will destroy your PC with one cast (if they get it off, of course).

NeOmega, you could always build up a dangerous sneak attack Area, mobs designed and all, and submit that to the Staff for review and inclusion. You seem to have a real desire, so build it out and prove your point about how much we’re all missing out on this type of game experience!

[Valefort]

Well, my PC is a fighter type but I played one wizard up to level 21 and one rogue up to 9. My main needs top gear to be good and is consumeables-hungry. My wizard was naked and I hit the recommend button on level up systematically, still steamrolled the content. My rogue got so boring as soon as I got HiPS that I stopped playing him.

Now guess what I think about this sentence :

Have you ever, ever, ever played a fantasy game, where the rogues and mages were OP, and the fighters were "Meh" to weak?