survival, cleaning and cooking

[NeOmega]

I don't want another DC increases constantly beyond the point of possibility for NPCs to succeed to step over a bunch of rails while walking.

ok, this is the second time i have to say this. you still obviously have not read and understood the mechanic.

i even repeated in caps, but still you are objecting to a proposal NOBODY made. this is tiring, especially since iam doing this from an ipad.

so for the love of god, read the proposal first, then make your objections.

[Aspect of Sorrow]

The worst trouble for my first hunt of whitetail deer wasn't finding the deer, the selection of tools, finding meat on the animal, skinning it, drying it, avoiding the scent glands, etc.

It was being nine years old and trying to drag 200 lbs of dead weight out of the woods alone.

I'm a software engineer.

I'm not trying to trivialize the experience but hunting, cleaning, and cooking isn't an exact science.

[NeOmega]

The worst trouble for my first hunt of whitetail deer wasn't finding the deer, the selection of tools, finding meat on the animal, skinning it, drying it, avoiding the scent glands, etc.

It was being nine years old and trying to drag 200 lbs of dead weight out of the woods alone.

I'm a software engineer.

I'm not trying to trivialize the experience but hunting, cleaning, and cooking isn't an exact science.

have you ever hiked for weeks, and gone hunting? and you just went out at 9, picked all the right equipment to bring, etc, etc?

i bet, if we made a dressing kit, made it weigh 5 pounds... ...half the players would not bother... ..and that is carrying fake weight.

further more, you killed a dicile deer with a rifle shot, you didnt stand toe to toe with it,mhack it,slash it, and bombard it with magic missiles. furthermore, you dragged it To your car... ...you didnt have to carry ot for days in the wild, after you guarded it while it was bled out so wild animals and goblins, unafraid of you, or your non existant gun or car, tried to steal it and peck at it.

Keep in mind that NPC hunters do these tasks daily.

NPC hunters who will reach at most level 2 in some NPC class.

Getting maximum 5 ranks in a skill, with maybe a bonus boosting it to 6 or 7.

Ridiculous DCs for mundane tasks are immersion breaking.

If an adventurer, someone who is the upper 1% of their profession, struggles to complete a mundane task related to said profession - then how the hell does anyone live and not starve to death?

Anything that requires a DC higher than 20 should be an exceptional challenge that happens only if you are pushing your limits. DCs above 30 should be limited to tasks that are not needed for the common man or even soldier to go by their day to day affairs. DCs above 40 should be relegated to heroic acts.

So.. a DC 35 to get some meat from an animal. No hunter NPC will ever pass that with his 4-7 ranks in survival. Not even with take 20.

so both of you did not read the proposal. This is always frustrating, as i hate defending ideas i never made.

the DC determines HOW LONG the extraction process takes.

so AN EXPERT does it QUICKLY, but a novice takes time.

anybody can do anything, given the time and tools.
of course wizards never forget their paring and skinning knives, wax wrap, salts, etc, to make sure the meat doesnt spoil before its cooked, like all the other little tools they bring along for very other "mundane" task.

have either of you worked in a skilled trade? have either of you spent weeks in the wilderness? have either of you spent weeks in the wilderness while practicing your skilled trade? of course not. you either have the tools and xpertise, or you dont. and then carrying around your work bench? ridiculous. wizards shouldnt be collecting dog meat. period. it takes 10,000 hours to become a master at something. I recently have achieved this, and oft my customers underestimate what it takes. i make it look easy and "mundane", but the trick is not knowing what to do when everything goes right. its knowing what to do when something isnt right. and once you are a master, and yeaching others, you realize about 25 - 50% of the time, there are challenges you glaze over, you dont even consider them challenges anymore, but seeing the newb struggle reminds you of everything you learned in your 10,000 hours.

so please dont tell me a learned wizard also is somehow an expert at survival and skinning and dressing battle scarred animals... ...when a wizard probably wouldnt even consider bringing the tools nevessary to do so, much less take the time to learn how.

and animals, dire animals etc, killed in magical battles, have a higher chance of presenting challenges. I know a guy who charges $100 an hour to butcher. and thats his moonlight job. professionals charge more.

I'm a chemist. My laboratory head probably has a modified score of 7-8 in his profession (synthethic chemistry). He does everything casually and easily and without effort. I probably have 1-2, and spend time deliberating how to proceed and refer to manuals to avoid mistakes.

Even if you use it as a function of time rather than DC, your wording went "discourage those who only have 1 or 2 ranks in survival."

Having a single rank in a skill means you went through the effort to understand it and are trained to perform it under duress. Having 4 ranks indicates you spent a very long time at it, or are specially talented and learn faster than others (since you maximized the amount of ranks you can achieve at level 1, and most commoners get to 2/3 by old age).

A person with 1 rank in a skill is not a fool. They are no master by any measure, but maybe below average in profession, and above average outside the profession (after all, they took the time to hone that skill).



Also, our characters are adventurers. They spend 50-200 miles away from any sign of civillization for tendays at a time. If they got past level 2, they know some basic survival through experience.

Your wizard example is flawed. Sure, a city mage will have trouble. But someone who trudges through mud and grime and fire and ice, spends forever out in the wilds hunting those rare ingredients for a spell will know how to survival, and will be well equipped.

cool, then farmer thorn should be beat by a roll of 4 on bluff in the rat quest, by somebody with no bluff....

[Aspect of Sorrow]

The point regarding the exact science lends to an idea that not all parts of the animal have to be used, not all considerations of etiquette is necessary. A briefly flame broiled chicken thigh that you deglove the skin from right after isn't beyond a starving wizard's options. It's difficult to give a duration to the mechanic from that viewpoint.

[NeOmega]

The point regarding the exact science lends to an idea that not all parts of the animal have to be used, not all considerations of etiquette is necessary. A briefly flame broiled chicken thigh that you deglove the skin from right after isn't beyond a starving wizard's options. It's difficult to give a duration to the mechanic from that viewpoint.

the idea is a starving wizard would still take the 15 seconds to do so, because he needs it, but he is not going to do it every time just because its a little extra gold to sell at market.

the idea is that a starving wizard takes the 15 seconds to do it, because he usually is not starving, so he usually does not consider skinning a rat.


btw, i appreciate those pf you who are being respectful. Iam a little hot right now because i quit forums a lng time ago because of the childishness that is displayed by people. i do not appreciate dishonest discourse, strawmen, and all the other idiocy. i am not Forcing anything on anyone, nor is the proposal an institution of force in any way.

[Aspect of Sorrow]

have you ever hiked for weeks, and gone hunting? and you just went out at 9, picked all the right equipment to bring, etc, etc?

Squirrel and pheasant in my teens. I learned my lesson on my limits and what absolute necessity meant. Fishing in my adult years only now.

i bet, if we made a dressing kit, made it weigh 5 pounds... ...half the players would not bother... ..and that is carrying fake weight.

Yeah, it and the rucksack in my teens I think was around ten pounds in total. Not a lot but every pound adds up.

further more, you killed a dicile deer with a rifle shot, you didnt stand toe to toe with it,mhack it,slash it, and bombard it with magic missiles. furthermore, you dragged it To your car... ...you didnt have to carry ot for days in the wild, after you guarded it while it was bled out so wild animals and goblins, unafraid of you, or your non existant gun or car, tried to steal it and peck at it.

At the time I naturally didn't have a vehicle nor license, and the weapon was a crossbow, the shot approximately 30 yards. I was a quarter of the mile from the residence of a friend, a mostly uphill struggle back then. I had made quite a mess of it, lobbing off the legs for weight reduction. Returned for all but the one leg. It's probably out there to this day still.

btw, i appreciate those pf you who are being respectful. Iam a little hot right now because i quit forums a lng time ago because of the childishness that is displayed by people. i do not appreciate dishonest discourse, strawmen, and all the other idiocy. i am not Forcing anything on anyone, nor is the proposal an institution of force in any way.

Understandable

Then again... deer are notoriously stupid.

[NeOmega]

Geeze, to think I was just going to leave it be when the scripter objected....

anyways, to calrify what my proposal would mean...


if you as a level 1 take 4 ranks in survival, it takes you 12 seconds to gather meat. which is not bad for a level one getting a free, on the spot potion of lesser vigor.

Put on a lucky fishermans cap (survival +5) and it only takes 7 seconds. Put on an eleven claok with +2 survive, or one of the backpacks sold at Maltz shop.. it takes the same amount of time it takes to unlock a chest, disable or examine a trap or rest... 5 seconds. at level 5, (if you take a rank of survival every level up), just by wearing a lucky fishermans cap, and having an adventurers pack sold at Maltz, you get almost unlimted, free potions of lesser vigor, and it only takes you 1 second to gather them.

Yes, this is a MECHANICAL brake. But it makes sense, it makes sense because it simply makes NO SENSE that sorcerers and wizards and clerics of Gond are out there eating rat and dog meat. Especially when many of these have wealthy twinked heir gear/backgrounds supposedly.

And final thought... orcs, half-orcs and elves could get it done in one second automatically... ..and orcs could eat it raw. yeah.

[Aspect of Sorrow]

Mm, makes sense. Something we should also consider, and the fishing system should take into account of this, is the duration of these systems. A balance in time and yield should probably be kept when considering the general play time , as not all have more than an hour to spend a day. Not that immediate results need to be made, but something sub 10 seconds maybe, and skills would aid in the output.

[Calodan]

Avid backpacker here. Outdoor education is my education. I can say for certain there were no skinning and meat cutting classes in my education. There is not a way that is any faster than any other technique per say. You can skin a deer in one pull yeah but that is a strength thing really as pulling the hide off the muscle is quite tough due to fascia that connects it. Knowing this does not decrease my strength needed to skin the deer or carry the deer. Or even decrease the time in point of fact. Strength would however. Being strong and fit is what holds sway in that sense. As in any 9 year old can do it as AOS was saying but what limits a person in this sense is their physical attributes. Not their knowledge.



Again we have to look at the time period of which our PCs are in. The hunting, skinning and butchering of animals would be a commonly taught everyday skill for almost everyone as was stated above already as well. Unless you were a Prince or some stuff there really is not one reason no one could not effectively at least skin and butcher meat in short time. Hell most did not even skin it. Can cut a leg off at the hip joint and then just roast over fire. The fire chars the hide and fur area but you don't eat that you eat the meat that is cooked nicely with not one char since the hide took that part of it.....Even quicker per say that way to do less in point of fact.

I am in favor of DC checks for meat to provide a certain bonus. I.E. the regen effects are pretty cool. However making it take more time makes no sense and I wish not to be made to take more time doing things for another's sense of what RP should be. Let's leave it open to interpretation and let us the players decide if the process takes more time when we RP it yeah?

[aaron22]

watch a show like survivor and those are just plain john and jane out there cooking and cleaning (mostly fish, but sometimes chickens). you dont have to make pretty steaks and wrap them in wax paper. cut off a leg. peel of the skin. stick it over the fire. spit out the weird stuff you messed up with. whatever. i have hunted and fished and cleaned a deer. if i was just breaking down a a wolf or whatever for food, i would not care how messy i made it. just get it done and figure it out from there.

[Planehopper]

It is much more complicated to skin a 'good and useable' pelt from an animal (especially a wounded one) than it is to clean it enough to harvest meat. We have pelts/hides drop as loot without any checks.

If we require DCs for butchering it would be inconsistent with gathering hides without one.

Something to consider, anyway.

[NegInfinity]

... you guys are definitely overthinking it. Basically, the moment somebody starts thinking about "realism" in D&D, they're heading in the wrong direction. In the direction of slippery slope to mess it all up.

This is still a game, and it would be the best not to turn it into a deer skinning simulator.

A decent idea would be to go through rulebooks and find dcs for skinning tasks, instead of thinking/arguing about it.

[RaiderOne]

Actually a cleaner solution would be to give more "parts" per skill ranks.

[Hoihe]

... you guys are definitely overthinking it. Basically, the moment somebody starts thinking about "realism" in D&D, they're heading in the wrong direction. In the direction of slippery slope to mess it all up.

This is still a game, and it would be the best not to turn it into a deer skinning simulator.

A decent idea would be to go through rulebooks and find dcs for skinning tasks, instead of thinking/arguing about it.

"Realism is uneeded because it's a game/movie" is a terrible and useless statement that hinders improving immersion - and immersion is the most important aspect of a roleplaying game.

Also keep in mind that there is realism compared to real world, and realism compared to internal rules. There's realistic magic (that adheres to Magic of Faerun) and unrealistic magic (where you, without any citations to prove it can be done, do a spell that has no business existing).

[DeepFriedMoose]

Actually a cleaner solution would be to give more "parts" per skill ranks.

This seems really reasonable to me, actually. More skill = more (or a higher quality) product.

What about a loot table that you roll against? Low score = a chunk of meat that is edible; Med score = better quality; Superior Score = Best Quality; Nat20 = double yeild; Nat1 = nothing? Table can be divided 100/5, so every 20 ranks basically allows you to get better and better meat/hide?