Enough with the rp bias whining!

[Blame The Rogue]

of course outside influences affect my character

what i meant is that no one can force and/or bully your character into something. you choose the actions of your character. you don't choose the actions of someone else's character

and also, that players should have the best interest of all players in mind. you can have interactions, hostile and non-hostile, without blatantly ruining someone else's rp

if someone's rp henges on the response they get, icly, from other character's, that's a recipe for disappointment

of course things don't always go as planned. ask my archer, who was chewed on by a dragon, and unceremoniously spit out. all the actually happened was a dm dragon killed him, i actually went with the punches and added that last part to enhance the rp of the situation on the fly

[NegInfinity]

you don't choose the actions of someone else's character

Reminds me of people who try to police characters of others. Thankfully those types are uncommon.

[Blame The Rogue]

you don't choose the actions of someone else's character

Reminds me of people who try to police characters of others. Thankfully those types are uncommon.

agreed

[Aspect of Sorrow]

The community often drives those of us who are considerate into quitting "Evil" rp. I've done my best with my PC's to never meta-game any knowledge (To include levels). I've been level 14, and attacked a level 30 over an argument that still results in "Your character needs to lose weight" Jokes (Looking at you AoS).

Vithsiris bought her a gnome treadmill for Christmas.

[Hoihe]

Pretty sure he meant that we all want to roleplay our characters.

I can't read minds and don't know what was meant which is why I respond to what was written/said instead.

During my time here I did experience couple of times where alignment conflict escalated to OOC conflict, due to some odd beliefs held by sides. Like that "justice is supposed to prevail and good guys should win". However, those attitudes appeared on different sides and different alignments.

The thing about trying to tell their story is something that stood out as a frequent source of conflict.

This is another reason for OOC communication

It is also possible to go overboard with OOC communication. If there are too many people involved, then they can end up debating for eternity and getting deralied.

In fact, I prefer to have no OOC communication, but like to interact with someone who doesn't have unreasonable expectations and can handle their character or circumstances thrown at them.

Here's a thing - I don't really care about stories beyond them being media for experiencing the world in a dynamic way.

What I care about is experiencing said world, by embracing whatever character I am playing as myself for the duration - be it Atria or Cienea or Regina Skyler what have you.

Said character undergoes change, evolves as their own person and are not static. However, they are made with an idea in mind - to enable a certain kind of emotion/suppress a certain kind of emotion, to allow experiencing something otherwise one is incapable of.

If said character gets permanently maimed or traumatised, playing them is going to turn incredibly exhausting.

And their existence will turn even more exhausting for those who play with them. Having interacted with lots of characters who got traumatised IC - It's a bloody PITA trying to play an empathethic character near them. You'll end up drained, hollow and empty IRL yourself as you try to drag them out of said hole. I don't want to impose said experience on anyone else as it's anything but fun. And I play this game to be the opposite of drained, hollow and empty IRL.

Do notice how I emphasized permanently. If a physical wounds can get healed in a 3 week span - I'll happily play along during the recovery period. 3 weeks is just about the time when something on this server feels long, but doesn't feel like it's too long. It's partly why during my time the DM team had suggestions to run non-metaplot plots to end them in 3 weeks, preferably at a weekly separation.

Now, mental wounds healing in 3 week spans sounds like a cop out, no? And it is. You either suffer from said mental wounds for years (even the Sanity Variant allows for recovering permanent sanity loss, where sanity loss describes mental HP, but it takes years unless you take the amnesia route where by forgetting everything traumatic, you regain 100% max mental HP), or you take one of two options: Amnesia everything traumatic as soon as it happens - your character doesn't even know it happened and forgot anything related to it, it's as if it never happened, you recover in an extraordinarily swift manner.

Ah! But you say "Why not retire the character for duration of their recovery if playing them is so exhausting for you and your fellow players?" and I respond with: "Losing a character would require me to design a character that enables the same experiences/emotions as this one, and that feels fake to me."

Scars, mental/physical that are recovered from fully in 3 weeks mean you get to return to RPing more or less normally, and have what happened act as a character development stepping stone without it overwhelming everything that was before. Say a more cautious individual around certain kinds of people (preferred) vs broken shell of an individual who cannot be played without being a chore.

I prefer organically grown characters. I make a general concept that can satisfy my requirements, run it for 1-2 months, if it shows signs of satisfying those requirements well, I keep them. If not, new character. It's a very energy intensive process, and I rather gain energy from RPing, not lose even more from my already depleted cup.


I really should make my post on "Why do you roleplay" one of these days. Pitting "Storytellers" vs "Experience Seekers" "Escapism" vs "Fulfillment" on a 2 axis spectrum.

[NegInfinity]

Here's a thing - I don't really care about stories beyond them being media for experiencing the world in a dynamic way.

What I care about is experiencing said world, by embracing whatever character I am playing as myself for the duration - be it Atria or Cienea or Regina Skyler what have you.

Said character undergoes change, evolves as their own person and are not static. However, they are made with an idea in mind - to enable a certain kind of emotion/suppress a certain kind of emotion, to allow experiencing something otherwise one is incapable of.

If said character gets permanently maimed or traumatised, playing them is going to turn incredibly exhausting.

And their existence will turn even more exhausting for those who play with them. Having interacted with lots of characters who got traumatised IC - It's a bloody PITA trying to play an empathethic character near them. You'll end up drained, hollow and empty IRL yourself as you try to drag them out of said hole. I don't want to impose said experience on anyone else as it's anything but fun. And I play this game to be the opposite of drained, hollow and empty IRL.

Do notice how I emphasized permanently. If a physical wounds can get healed in a 3 week span - I'll happily play along during the recovery period. 3 weeks is just about the time when something on this server feels long, but doesn't feel like it's too long. It's partly why during my time the DM team had suggestions to run non-metaplot plots to end them in 3 weeks, preferably at a weekly separation.

Now, mental wounds healing in 3 week spans sounds like a cop out, no? And it is. You either suffer from said mental wounds for years (even the Sanity Variant allows for recovering permanent sanity loss, where sanity loss describes mental HP, but it takes years unless you take the amnesia route where by forgetting everything traumatic, you regain 100% max mental HP), or you take one of two options: Amnesia everything traumatic as soon as it happens - your character doesn't even know it happened and forgot anything related to it, it's as if it never happened, you recover in an extraordinarily swift manner.

Ah! But you say "Why not retire the character for duration of their recovery if playing them is so exhausting for you and your fellow players?" and I respond with: "Losing a character would require me to design a character that enables the same experiences/emotions as this one, and that feels fake to me."

Scars, mental/physical that are recovered from fully in 3 weeks mean you get to return to RPing more or less normally, and have what happened act as a character development stepping stone without it overwhelming everything that was before. Say a more cautious individual around certain kinds of people (preferred) vs broken shell of an individual who cannot be played without being a chore.

I prefer organically grown characters. I make a general concept that can satisfy my requirements, run it for 1-2 months, if it shows signs of satisfying those requirements well, I keep them. If not, new character. It's a very energy intensive process, and I rather gain energy from RPing, not lose even more from my already depleted cup.


I really should make my post on "Why do you roleplay" one of these days. Pitting "Storytellers" vs "Experience Seekers" "Escapism" vs "Fulfillment" on a 2 axis spectrum.

I play differently and have either never experineced issues you describe or do not see them as problem.

I do not ever play good alignment. Hence no reason to drag out every stranger out of their wound/whatever. The characters I encountered that did receive permanent change took it rather well (one of them got branded and banished, for example), and I recall no issue regarding that. I can guarantee that I will not end up drained IRL interacting with any character like that, even if they're somebody my character cares about, no matter what happens.

So the whole "how to handle somebody's wound" thing is simply an issue that does not exist for me. For my characters permadeath is something that is always a possibility, so I don't have an issue wit hit either.

Speaking of "Escapism vs Fullfilment" If you're talking about form of Wish fulfilment it is a form of escapism and both are not exactly healthy way to play. The issue with "Wish fullfillment" kind of play is because it leads to expectations and people get upset when those are not met. One example was somebody who was really hung up on being praised for their heroic actions.

So, in the scenario you presented, I'm not sure what the problem is supposed to be.

[NeOmega]

winning a pvp batlle entitles the winner to nothing. It doesnt entitle them to take 1000 gold because they are bandits, it doesnt entitle them to cut your hands off. Being a better player or having a better build does not entitle you to anything.

If somebody even tries that nonsense without consent, they are being a jerk. If the loser wants to play along, that's fine and dandy, but i dont see how this is even an issue.

To have these kind of cataclysmic wounds or robberies would take a good build up of trust and negotiation between players, and of course reasons for such a dark turn in rp. This is the rp of friends telling a good story, not players using mechanics to dominate another.

When I read stuff like this, I really wonder what the hardcore RPers are actually even like, (it just seems to confirm my bias against them) as i tend to do light RP, and at lower levels.

I honestly find such tales disturbing, but not surprising.

If it is part of a DM plot, different story, as I would hope DMs have story rewards (not Xp and loot) in the future for those who choose to play along. I dont know, as my few RP interactions with DMs have *always* been negative. One of the many reasons I just plain avoid hardcore RP, ( that and I just don't care about the meta plot, or "changing the landscape" since it feels like "changing the landscape" is epic or nothing.) The only fun ones were basic mob spawn battles.

[Hoihe]

winning a pvp batlle entitles the winner to nothing. It doesnt entitle them to take 1000 gold because they are bandits, it doesnt entitle them to cut your hands off. Being a better player or having a better build does not entitle you to anything.

If somebody even tries that nonsense without consent, they are being a jerk. If the loser wants to play along, that's fine and dandy, but i dont see how this is even an issue.

To have these kind of cataclysmic wounds or robberies would take a good build up of trust and negotiation between players, and of course reasons for such a dark turn in rp. This is the rp of friends telling a good story, not players using mechanics to dominate another.

When I read stuff like this, I really wonder what the hardcore RPers are actually even like, (it just seems to confirm my bias against them) as i tend to do light RP, and at lower levels.

I honestly find such tales disturbing, but not surprising.

If it is part of a DM plot, different story, as I would hope DMs have story rewards (not Xp and loot) in the future for those who choose to play along. I dont know, as my few RP interactions with DMs have *always* been negative. One of the many reasons I just plain avoid hardcore RP, ( that and I just don't care about the meta plot, or "changing the landscape" since it feels like "changing the landscape" is epic or nothing.) The only fun ones were basic mob spawn battles.

I've solid proof that PvP winners and even just other "winners" tried to guilt trip people they defeated into accepting whatever they said, giving their consent, since not doing so would mean they are piss poor RPers, and of course you don't want to be a bad RPer so you consent right?

Hidden: show

Here's a thing - I don't really care about stories beyond them being media for experiencing the world in a dynamic way.

What I care about is experiencing said world, by embracing whatever character I am playing as myself for the duration - be it Atria or Cienea or Regina Skyler what have you.

Said character undergoes change, evolves as their own person and are not static. However, they are made with an idea in mind - to enable a certain kind of emotion/suppress a certain kind of emotion, to allow experiencing something otherwise one is incapable of.

If said character gets permanently maimed or traumatised, playing them is going to turn incredibly exhausting.

And their existence will turn even more exhausting for those who play with them. Having interacted with lots of characters who got traumatised IC - It's a bloody PITA trying to play an empathethic character near them. You'll end up drained, hollow and empty IRL yourself as you try to drag them out of said hole. I don't want to impose said experience on anyone else as it's anything but fun. And I play this game to be the opposite of drained, hollow and empty IRL.

Do notice how I emphasized permanently. If a physical wounds can get healed in a 3 week span - I'll happily play along during the recovery period. 3 weeks is just about the time when something on this server feels long, but doesn't feel like it's too long. It's partly why during my time the DM team had suggestions to run non-metaplot plots to end them in 3 weeks, preferably at a weekly separation.

Now, mental wounds healing in 3 week spans sounds like a cop out, no? And it is. You either suffer from said mental wounds for years (even the Sanity Variant allows for recovering permanent sanity loss, where sanity loss describes mental HP, but it takes years unless you take the amnesia route where by forgetting everything traumatic, you regain 100% max mental HP), or you take one of two options: Amnesia everything traumatic as soon as it happens - your character doesn't even know it happened and forgot anything related to it, it's as if it never happened, you recover in an extraordinarily swift manner.

Ah! But you say "Why not retire the character for duration of their recovery if playing them is so exhausting for you and your fellow players?" and I respond with: "Losing a character would require me to design a character that enables the same experiences/emotions as this one, and that feels fake to me."

Scars, mental/physical that are recovered from fully in 3 weeks mean you get to return to RPing more or less normally, and have what happened act as a character development stepping stone without it overwhelming everything that was before. Say a more cautious individual around certain kinds of people (preferred) vs broken shell of an individual who cannot be played without being a chore.

I prefer organically grown characters. I make a general concept that can satisfy my requirements, run it for 1-2 months, if it shows signs of satisfying those requirements well, I keep them. If not, new character. It's a very energy intensive process, and I rather gain energy from RPing, not lose even more from my already depleted cup.


I really should make my post on "Why do you roleplay" one of these days. Pitting "Storytellers" vs "Experience Seekers" "Escapism" vs "Fulfillment" on a 2 axis spectrum.

I play differently and have either never experineced issues you describe or do not see them as problem.

I do not ever play good alignment. Hence no reason to drag out every stranger out of their wound/whatever. The characters I encountered that did receive permanent change took it rather well (one of them got branded and banished, for example), and I recall no issue regarding that. I can guarantee that I will not end up drained IRL interacting with any character like that, even if they're somebody my character cares about, no matter what happens.

So the whole "how to handle somebody's wound" thing is simply an issue that does not exist for me. For my characters permadeath is something that is always a possibility, so I don't have an issue wit hit either.

Speaking of "Escapism vs Fullfilment" If you're talking about form of Wish fulfilment it is a form of escapism and both are not exactly healthy way to play. The issue with "Wish fullfillment" kind of play is because it leads to expectations and people get upset when those are not met. One example was somebody who was really hung up on being praised for their heroic actions.[/spoiler]

So, in the scenario you presented, I'm not sure what the problem is supposed to be.

You don't see a problem because for you, your characters are simple tools to tell a story.

For me it is a major problem, for me my characters are tools in form of masks to experience a dynamic setting and interactions within. Story is secondary for me to the experiences I can gain. If my character, or people around them gets traumatised, that's almost as draining as dealing with people with trauma IRL. To be frank, having had to tangle with suicidal friends both IRL and IC, I say both are equally mentally draining and depressing. That's the first axis of my "categorisation."

My second axis is about "Is your character/story about something you respect/aspire to be, or something to drown out OOC with?"

Best example for second axis is my irish friend who wants to move to U.S to become a cop. He constantly plays characters in positions of authority - paladins, security guards, detectives, Private Investigators, literal cops, Millitary Police, Master at Arms (Navy). He plays characters he respects or are as close to his idealised future as possible.

His opposite, a common friend of the irish cop dude and I is a guy with a history degree running a rather demanding business. He is pretty damn exhausted mentally, so he has no interest in playing scholars, scientists and other brain heavy characters. Instead, he plays janitors, thugs, cargo technicians, shaft miners - people who are all brawn and no brain.

[Tekill]

Two big arguments over the years have been:

1)Some players are too mean versus some players are whiners and its always the other side that ruins pvp and therefore the RP.

My advise to both sides of the argument:
This is a polarized argument that does not acknowledge that both sides are correct.
The only real solution is to create an atmosphere where we encourage folk to rise above the drama caused by this argument.
This is a game, and when you play a game sometimes you lose. The same goes with life as well- you win some and you lose some. It is common sense that with both games and with life it is preferable to win. My point here is that a game that simulates life is not going to be realistic if it is always going to be fair, and as well, to always win.
The rules in place are to try to to make it fair for both sides and therefor will never be perfect, because it has to be a balance. If we can all keep this in mind and give friendly reminders to others we will all be able to more easily swallow our pride and/or ego's, and compromise to be more accepting of what happens in game.
If you just suck it up a bit and refuse to let it (the meanies, or whiners) get to you, I promise you, that you will always rise from the ashes stronger than before. This is not a euphemism or ideology, its not a theory- its The Law of PVP. Rawr!

2)Evil players are oppressed/repressed.

It happens.
I think at this point, most of us can agree that it happens. There has been many posts on this bringing up many valid and reliable arguments to support this. The least one being, that because Evil does not play well with others, it is often left alienated. There are much better arguments but I think all of us can at least agree with that one at least to a degree.

I think the bigger revelation in our prior debates to this argument was that there was oppression/repression to the other alignments as well, and as a matter of fact this oppression may not be directly related to alignment. It may be more noticeable to evil players who's job has been to cause discord, but other alignments experience it as well.

As I mentioned earlier the rules have been created to try to create fairness for everyone. But I think the cause of this oppression/repression has been a result of trying to keep things equal for everyone- to attempt to minimize ooc conflicts too much. Or maybe in the wrong ways?

Let's look at the Forum Moderator's Tsidkenu's post in this very thread.

He/She seems to discuss the lack of control we have over our own characters. The D20, the laws of nature, fate, what have you, prevents us from always being fully in control of our toons. I agree, but there is much more to this control- look at how she/he start his/her post.

When I first saw this thread pop up I thought, 'Great, another one to lock,' and let me tell you my mouse cursor hovered over that lock button for some time. But despite the generally negative opening which comes rather close to breaching forum rule #3, I decided to leave it alone and I'm actually glad I have in this case.

Exercising that kind of control over us is uncool. How do we expect to have any control to freely RP when we have a mouse constantly hovering over the lock button of censorship!?

She/he then finishes her thread stating that because of a few bad apples that cant be mature, every player on the entire frigging server have to obey irritating rules.

My point is similar to Deathgrowl's: Maturity, folks. Craft a story that -engages- other players and makes them willing to participate. The only reason this server has so many irritating rules (like PvP RP outs) is because there are always those who will abuse whatever system is in place for poops and giggles, nothing more. And I'm not here for that. Are you?

Edit 17/12/2017 - This is not meant as an attack on Tsidkenu but as moderator his/her view reflects the standards set by those in power who set the rules and doing so the stage of the game. It is meant as an example of the points I am making only.

It seems that these “irritating rules” have been set up so that everyone can create their own story and to become the star of this story. Looks good on paper, but, with everyone being the star of the show, we forget all the other characters needed to create a decent story, including the antagonist.
So now, if one of us is not as much of a star, as everyone else, we will get upset and see it as unfair. Try to create any sort of positive pvp experience in this kind of atmosphere! It is just not going to happen.
By attempting to maximize freedom for everyone to become the star (snowflake syndrome), it has sucked a lot of realism, conflict and life out of what a lot of us want to do in the game.
The oppression/repression is not against evil players or a certain alignment, it is against antagonists in general. A message to the powers that be: the many should not be punished for the crimes/attitudes of the few.

I think what I am saying is that BGTSCC has become similar to a form of Communism – HA!
That might be a bit of a stretch...I laughed when I thought of it, so I am sharing it. I just called you all commies...sorry heheh.

Of course there are other issues that play a factor in failure to accomplish RP objectives, such as a small population of players playing in various time zones and the lack of player organization, such as factions.

But there is an in game mediocrity that keeps us all waiting for a dm response, mindlessly questing/grinding, having tea parties, or sitting around the campfire waiting for anything to happen. It's not just about, suffocating the antagonists players or the rules not allowing me to do my thing. It is about rules that are overly protective of everyone in general and pandering to....(wait for it)...
SNOWFLAKE COMMUNISM!



I have kind of stopped playing for awhile – started taking music lessons.
Krackit Cragborn will still be on for any underdark RP . I feel the UD players seem to do things right. I think it is because there is an ever present expectation of danger and conflict, that the surface players just do not understand. You know as an UD player that your best pal might just pk you. So you get over your ego pretty quick.
For me that's fun and exciting RP!

[Torgerias]

Can I take a moment to just point out that we're all playing make believe here? If another player's in-character actions are having a genuinely negative impact on you emotionally, try reminding yourself that it's all just pretend. If you can't make that distinction, then maybe you should re-assess whether you should be playing this game. There's being invested in your character, and then there's obsession.

EDIT: That came out meaner than I intended. I don't intend to be mean by saying this. People take their characters and their own RP way, way, way, way, way too seriously here. Like, life and death seriously. It's a game, guys. It's supposed to be an outlet.

[Egg Shen]

Krackit Cragborn will still be on for any underdark RP . I feel the UD players seem to do things right. I think it is because there is an ever present expectation of danger and conflict, that the surface players just do not understand. You know as an UD player that your best pal might just pk you. So you get over your ego pretty quick.

That is the answer right there. Play goodies on the surface and baddies in the Underdark.

It's a bummer that it can't be different, but unless you love bashing your head against a brick wall or you get off on OOC drama, do yourself a favor and stick to the above recommendation. Or, as Aaron mentioned, just mentally prepare yourself for some tough sledding.

[Blackman D]

hence why i havent been on the surface to rp in like 3 yrs

[NegInfinity]

You don't see a problem because for you, your characters are simple tools to tell a story.

Great way to jump to a wrong conclusion, dude. Real amazing.

Anyway, you're mistaken and that's not how I play my characters.

For me it is a major problem, for me my characters are tools in form of masks

I don't ever put myself in the world. I make a character, mold their personality and aspiration, throw then into the world and see what happens to them. I call it "third person playing". I'm an observer, occasionally affecting character's decision. This is much more fun than trying to place yourself in the world, and greatly increases number of archetypes you can control. In short, my character is not me, and is not my mask.

This style of play is less likely to result in being upset, exhausted or in OOC conflict.

I can't say it is storytelling either, because I don't have a story to tell, but rather watch it being written.

In general, I do not recommend trying to experience the world from within. This will make your real you seep through cahracter to greater degree than playing them from distance, and it will increase your chances of becoming upset when something bad happens to the character. Saw it happen plenty of times.

---------

hence why i havent been on the surface to rp in like 3 yrs

I have a problem where I want the world to have a sky, plus the setting is too dark for my liking. As in "I can't see much there". If there was a city placed on avernus where I could say play a fiend, I'd go for it instantly.

[Israe]

This is stupid and frustrating to read. The generalization of PVP'ers and non PVP'ers, good and evil players, enables you to say anything about any generalized community in this game. "PVP'ers guilt trip players and I have proof!". Ok, so it may of happened from a player, not PVP'ers. I engage in PVP when applicable and i do not guilt trip players. You have NO obligation to me as a player, and should you take the RP out it does not bother me unless you instigate the encounter. I've made it a point to enhance a PC story through my actions, taking into consideration what do you find fun? What development do you want? So from here if they are RP out the situation, don't insult or antagonize my PC. If you take an RP out don't send a lynch squad at me. And the fact I'm Rowing before an attack, don't use that as an opportunity to get cheap shots in such as having your friend run from 3 zones over while you don't make it clear if you accept the situation or no.

Every player can say no. And the "Good guys" of the server have their own problem children that we evil players groan when we see, however I will not oocly disrespect them. I won't generalize all of you, because if I did I would complain along the lines that all good players want to do is kill us evil players, by RP out when at a disadvantage. Once at an advantage you're willing to engage me and all of a sudden PVP is ok. Oh for aftermath RP? Let's just burn the corpses but if an evil player spares me and slaps me that's torture.

These are experiences I've had with players, yet on a refreshing an encounter we had a massive battle with Candlekeep over one of Kahanaks failed exploits (Darn you JCVD). The players spared our PC characters with a developing story, and result is my PC Jys was humbled and now is afraid to go back there, do to my respect to players who are considerate and great RP'ers.

Lesson is, generalizations are negative. Stop generalizing communities for their preferences, and jumping the gun to slander someone. Please approach me as a player in game, and don't think "Great another evil drow PC that wants to just pvp". Please stop driving away the community that plays more hostile creatures, because of your experiences with others. RP with me, and trust me to not just engage you without permission. And if you get an L accept the L should you choose to fight, and let me know what you're ok with and your preferences, I'm not here to show you how my build is and just kill you, I'm living through my Pc's eyes and their story.

[grymhild]

what Israe said, +1