Suggestion: Double Rest Timer Cooldown for Overall Balance

[Steve]

Get rid of the rest timer altogether. Make it so you can only rest at an inn by hiring a room. If you want to rest outside, make it risky - unless you are with a specialist like a ranger. No resting randomly on city streets or in hostile dungeons.

You are a cruel man! lol. But yeah, another way to do it.

If casters/gishes would need to memorize more buff spells to last a longer timer, then they cannot memorize DC spells. That changed the situation, and reduces the power, or changes the power, of such builds.

I find it interesting that those that solo the most find this suggestion so horrid!

[Diamore]

I do not find it horrid. I find the idea blatantly pointless. I do not see the actual point of such a suggestion.

I play several very different characters, none of which require resting to be effective on long adventures. The only time they require resting, is when they wish their teammates to be effective as I prefer a support role regardless of class played. All but one of my characters are built with endurance in mind because of the nature of rests on the server.

Despite this, a doubling of rest periods would still impact them. Delays in their grind would mostly be due to allies needing constant healing, rebuffing or shorter term abilities. The person eating up all the heals/stoneskin/whatever, or needing to replenish their attack spells very quickly feels like they are dragging down the rest of the group.


Selectively reducing the impact of whatever spells you believe are causing whatever problems you see on the server is the most effective way of combating it. Characters with short duration abilities or buffs will be disproportionately affected by this proposal and lead to an increase of selfish spellcasting and self reliant characters.

Bursty and DC based characters are already fairly limited in effectiveness. This would emphasise their weaknesses compared to other gish builds more so than the existing structure of the server.


Reducing rest areas to regions where enemies do not spawn and removing rest counters entirely would be a better, but still flawed, approach. It would allow for limited grind and rest periods by changing areas, while still allowing for an increase in dungeon difficulty. If paired with a cap on healing from healing kits per rest, druid/ranger/survival based items for safe resting in the wild (with a cooldown) and a balance pass on spells that are causing concern you could have the impact on power and balance you are looking for.

Simply increasing rest times will not achieve the result you seem to desire.

[Planehopper]

Get rid of the rest timer altogether. Make it so you can only rest at an inn by hiring a room. If you want to rest outside, make it risky - unless you are with a specialist like a ranger. No resting randomly on city streets or in hostile dungeons.

Hear, hear! (Or read, read maybe).

This was this close *holds up his pinched fingers* from happening at one point, before Luna's first period of inactivity while I was still a DM. The concept at the time (if I recall) was to allow unlimited resting in inns, the harbor area (for the bums), and maybe a few protected camp areas. All other resting would be location dependent and require a consumable fire to be built, and ran the risk of wandering monsters. This could be partially mitigated by a high survival skill or the taking of a custom feat.

I was a big fan at the time and always thought this would bring a bit more adventure on adventures.

What if the rest time was adjusted incrementally? Say, adding 20% to start and see if the impacts are positive or negative?

[NegInfinity]

Get rid of the rest timer altogether. Make it so you can only rest at an inn by hiring a room. If you want to rest outside, make it risky - unless you are with a specialist like a ranger. No resting randomly on city streets or in hostile dungeons.

Hear, hear! (Or read, read maybe).

This was this close *holds up his pinched fingers* from happening at one point, before Luna's first period of inactivity while I was still a DM. The concept at the time (if I recall) was to allow unlimited resting in inns, the harbor area (for the bums), and maybe a few protected camp areas. All other resting would be location dependent and require a consumable fire to be built, and ran the risk of wandering monsters. This could be partially mitigated by a high survival skill or the taking of a custom feat.

I was a big fan at the time and always thought this would bring a bit more adventure on adventures.

What if the rest time was adjusted incrementally? Say, adding 20% to start and see if the impacts are positive or negative?

Rather than increasing the timer, a better idea is to keep the rest timer as is, but add unlimited rest at inns as you suggested.

Not sure what to do about "magical forest hobo" classes, though. Or about high-survival-skill classes (aka "I'm a frezerker, so I can sleep in a bush").

Woudln't want timer increase, because real life is a thing. Unlimited rest in the inn has a positive effect- it drags people into inns where they can interact with each other. Increased rest timer has no positive effect, because effectively it only make people annoyed when they mess up casting order. So, unlimited rest in inns is good, while timer increase is not.

The rest timer is the reason why I prefer to have self-sufficient characters that do not rely on any "X times per rest" abilities.

[Sun Wukong]

What would happen if divine power would get removed - Clerics/FSs would still be powerful, don't you think ?

I could point you to threads that were about reducing the primary effect on Divine Power to AB from BAB. A change with notably large opposition. But let us entertain the unlikely possibility where Divine Power is removed and answer the question of how Clerics and Favored Souls would perform.

In short, without divine Power, you might freely compare them to the current Spirit Shamans. It would be possible to make a 26 BAB builds with caster levels of 30, etc. This would certainly create more interest for classes such as Hospitaler (6/10), Warpriest (5/10), and Dragonslayer (6/10), mixed in with some Hierophant to overcome the loss of caster levels these PRCs have. Thus with or without Divine Power, you would see EDM based power builds that fundamentally perform no differently to the current EDM based power builds.

Now, it would be a huge change and people would be understandably rather unhappy about it. Even if there is a 100% RCR period, people would still have to go through the hassle of creating a new character, leveling it up, passing over equipment, and asking for DM aid to pass the untransferrable guild tokens. Spontaneous characters cannot swap spells after level 20, therefore a 100% RCR period is necessary to fix the issue of a missing spell from their spell books.

Ask yourself, what would actually come out of the removal Divine Power? A largely annoyed if not outright disgruntled playerbase? And instead of EDM power builds roaming the server, you have almost identical EDM power builds roaming the server? What would be the point?

A better question to ask would be why Clerics and Favored Souls resort to Divine Power as their bread and butter spell, and the answer to that lies in the early days of the server. The server used to use the stock NWN2 mobs, which are largely the monster manual mobs. Frenzied Berserkers with Improved Power Attack and Two-weapon Fighting Rogues used to one shot those mobs, and those generally spawned one by one. There was not really a reason for a Cleric to cast a Flame Strike, or Druid to call down lighting, nor for the Wizard to throw that Fireball, hence the players behind these caster classes demanded for mobs with higher HP, AC, and so on to create more challenging mobs. Thus the Frenzied Berserkers and Rogues answered in kind and made demands for the mobs to have high saves, and this went on for quite a while... Until direct damage burst spells are largely useless. Where Rogues need need dedicated stealth gear to succeed. Where Frenzied Berserkers need to squeeze out every point of AB they can get. Because BGTSCC today basically has the very high end D&D boss monsters as our regular low level spawns.

Oh, and back in the early days of the server... You know what people used to say about the Favored Soul class? " It is so weak, I have to get both Charisma and Wisdom to cast spells, why would anyone ever play something so rubbish? " They stopped saying that once the server was driven to the corner where it is today, a place where you can only kill mobs by bashing a large mallet at their head. That was when people started to notice that Favored Soul worked rather well with Divine Power and EDM, especially when there was no reason left to even consider going for the spell DCs.

[aaron22]

i am mostly a solo player and i support this. i am critical, but supportive. what i am not seeing here is a "what am i trying to solve?" and then "will this solve it" argument. adding to the rest timer to me doesnt actually do anything. reducing and restricting rest areas, would. lowering the duration of buffs would likely have too much affect on the server. that would be mayhem.

in short, i am unsure what is trying to be accomplished with this proposal because i really cannot see increased rest having any more affect on casters vs melee. the affect i would see is the PvE would be minimally more difficult which is something i would support. even minimally.

now if you limited the rest areas like planehopper gave mention to, then that would likely just make for more need for actual gearing up by toons that typically use buffs to supplement gear and might make areas with supported rest as the few places that players will flock toward. this does create an issue for me as a player of surface orcs. where would i sleep free? not that i think we (orc players) should have all the same conveniences that goodly races get, but there might be a disparity that could upset players of toons like me. still would support it.

as to the players that utilize call lightning and fireball, that is a whole other discussion. I will say that the max HD on those should be increased due to the HPs of mobs being so inflated. in fact the great difference between player HP pools and mob HP pools cause a number of issues like this that should be attempted to resolve before others. increase the HD of fireball and it affects PvP so much that it becomes OP even if it is still UP against the mobs enormous HP pool.

[Steve]

Well, let me reiterate:

A fighter has an archetype, to be a melee force. A caster/gish can, through buffs, equal or outperform a melee archetype. Buffs shouldn't last forever, or, be far-too-easily reapplied...and currently that is the paradigm based on the length of the Rest Timer and the ease of Resting Spots throughout the Server (as discussed).

Thus, one does have a choice of a) reducing buff duration per spell (a lengthy process), b) increasing the Rest Timer so that buffs do run out, and thus the Fighter Archetype can excel at their gift, c) remove the Rest Timer entirely and allow only Rest in realistic safe zones (non-mob populated areas, except were a skill/feat provides such).

I understand the desire to defend the idea of a constantly buffed caster Character, in order that the Server can be easily gamed. But that paradigm is what causes a slew of Balancing issues, overall.

So, in my own defense of this OP suggestion, is smarter people (hi M3nt!!!) can out-perform the "right" people (hi M3nt, it's me again!!! ), I'm willing to support that initiative.

What I'm looking to solve is where current and future Content changes are placed SOLELY in regard to how much ROFL-stomping Casters and/or Gishes of Arcane/Divine basis are doing currently, and how much MORE powerful they will get...thus, some other goodies are not implemented. Yes, I'm coming off a specific example of casting in Polymorph issue. Duh.

What I want to see is what Nachti brough up, and which I support, is the 4 Archetypes of D&D have their unique power and place, and what can be done to simultaneously support the flavor of multi-classing, but not allow/support for some few combos or single Classes that just OP the rest of the options out there.

And, to find a very simple solution, which takes the least effort of the part of Staff.

Thus, if the 22 min Timer, which is outperformed by a CL 30 caster/buffbot, is increased to 44 min Rest Timer, that Caster Build type will have 14 minutes—in this one example—in which they'll be SOL (irregardless of whether a buff bot gish or a true caster). And thus a more true archetype melee Character can continue to progress and provide...and have real value.

Add to the conservation/management of an increased Rest Timer, there are the Dispels/traps/etc. that also hinder the Caster (or UMDer). Great! More challenge! More consumation of consumables! More gold sunk back into the (non)economy.

These are good things, right? Challenge breeds ingenuity that gifts excitement and feeling of accomplishment (even if its just "winning" in a computer game).

[Sun Wukong]

If casters/gishes would need to memorize more buff spells to last a longer timer, then they cannot memorize DC spells. That changed the situation, and reduces the power, or changes the power, of such builds.

Direct damage burst spells like Fireball are useless on this server. A fact that doesn't change even if you apply metamagic such as Empower or Maximise.

Save or die spells like Wail of Banshee can work here, but those require a highly dedicated DC based builds and are only valid if you can herd mobs and remain lucky with your rolls. The mobs might roll high, and your spell is spent doing jackall.

Typical gish builds have no mechanical reason to memorize direct damage burst spells or save or die spells. Even their ability scores are far better spent on things that directly increase damage/AB/AC. Therefore gishes will remain the same, they will just toss away the few spells they got for RP flavor and carry on focusing on being a proper gish. Thus mechanically speaking nothing has truly changed for the gishes of divine and arcane variety.

What you are punishing, presumably for the crimes of gishes, are the 'proper' D&D spellcasters.

I find it interesting that those that solo the most find this suggestion so horrid!

I find it more interesting that I have to keep pointing out the same facts page after page.

[Hoihe]

If casters/gishes would need to memorize more buff spells to last a longer timer, then they cannot memorize DC spells. That changed the situation, and reduces the power, or changes the power, of such builds.

Direct damage burst spells like Fireball are useless on this server. A fact that doesn't change even if you apply metamagic such as Empower or Maximise.

Save or die spells like Wail of Banshee can work here, but those require a highly dedicated DC based builds and are only valid if you can herd mobs and remain lucky with your rolls. The mobs might roll high, and your spell is spent doing jackall.

Typical gish builds have no mechanical reason to memorize direct damage burst spells or save or die spells. Even their ability scores are far better spent on things that directly increase damage/AB/AC. Therefore gishes will remain the same, they will just toss away the few spells they got for RP flavor and carry on focusing on being a proper gish. Thus mechanically speaking nothing has truly changed for the gishes of divine and arcane variety.

What you are punishing, presumably for the crimes of gishes, are the 'proper' D&D spellcasters.

I find it interesting that those that solo the most find this suggestion so horrid!

I find it more interesting that I have to keep pointing out the same facts page after page.

Proper D&D spellcasters and lore friendly magic warriors.

[aaron22]

I find it more interesting that I have to keep pointing out the same facts page after page.

2 things:
1) welcome to the server forum. there are a lot of helpful people here that can assist you in navigating both the game and subsidiary resources. have fun in game and hope to see you soon.

2) i don't think you are finding it "interesting" at all.

[Sun Wukong]

[Diamore]

I understand the desire to defend the idea of a constantly buffed caster Character, in order that the Server can be easily gamed.

This is not being defended. Painting those who oppose your suggestion as simply those who support buffed casters is being intellectually dishonest with the arguments against the suggestion.

Having your rest interrupted is not "fun", it is irritating. Waiting to rest is not "fun", it is boring and irritating.

This change would not improve the quality of life of any existing class. There is no evidence or argument presented thus far that would indicate this. There is only a general displeasure with gish builds and a general sentiment that resting is too readily available in some areas.

Increase the rest timer and you will see conjurers become even more common, another uptick in warlocks, reserve feats be used more widely and divine builds continue near exactly as they are.

And thus a more true archetype melee Character can continue to progress and provide...and have real value.

Simply making caster classes more painful to play, or more niche to build doesn't increase the value "true archetype melee characters" have. It encourages all other builds to be more like them. Such as all the gish builds, Con builds, warlocks, bards and any other long term sustain build.

[Cenerae]

Well, let me reiterate:

A fighter has an archetype, to be a melee force. A caster/gish can, through buffs, equal or outperform a melee archetype. Buffs shouldn't last forever, or, be far-too-easily reapplied...and currently that is the paradigm based on the length of the Rest Timer and the ease of Resting Spots throughout the Server (as discussed).

Thus, one does have a choice of a) reducing buff duration per spell (a lengthy process), b) increasing the Rest Timer so that buffs do run out, and thus the Fighter Archetype can excel at their gift, c) remove the Rest Timer entirely and allow only Rest in realistic safe zones (non-mob populated areas, except were a skill/feat provides such).

I understand the desire to defend the idea of a constantly buffed caster Character, in order that the Server can be easily gamed. But that paradigm is what causes a slew of Balancing issues, overall.

If buff reliant melee builds are too strong, nerf the buffs to bring them in line. If the casters have some secret OP spell or two, nerf the secret OP spell or two to bring them in line. If noncasters are underperforming, then help them. Making a blanket change to mildly annoy everyone will....mildly annoy everyone, and you won't solve anything. Gishes and buffsmash divine builds will still be doing what they always do. Making them have to stop and twiddle their thumbs for a few minutes after their buffs tick out doesn't make noncasters better.

I don't see the harm in making designated 'rest areas' (and this would generally make more sense than dropping to one knee at a random part of the dungeon), but that too won't actually change anything unless we get some really lengthy, difficult, proper dungeons instead of the randomly spawning ones we have now.

edit - I was about to edit in something about making dispels more prevailant, but Valefort beat me to it. <_<

[Valefort]

Could always simply bring back more dispels as many were removed.

[Steve]

What I find interesting is that people interpret me as having a problem with gishes, considering 90% of my Characters are gishes!!

@ Sir Monkey: what you say about gishes contradicts what the Staff says about gishes/casters and why certain choices on content are made.

@ Le Valefort: good idea but doesn't help any if Rest-a-ability is still so available in both time and space(s).

I'm not a big fan of catering to OOC Player happiness. I go for both more D&D core-esque game, or more realism. More consequence. More Risk for more Reward. I think there is a better balance of play in this game where a caster can nuke, but infrequently. A melee can pummel and slash forever but at a rate of challenge. A rogue can approach and unlock that which others simply cannot through lack of skill. A divine can call upon the powers of the gods, but only if they remain aligned and humble to the faith.

That said, I love to multiclass! But what I don't love is when multiclassing (example: gish) can ruin it for the archetypes. And what I've been told is, in the current paradigm on BGTSCC, gishes ruin it for everyone.