Suggestion: Double Rest Timer Cooldown for Overall Balance

[aaron22]

Hidden: show

Firstly,

Keep the rest timer, BUT, make it possible to rest an INFINITE amount of times in succession (i.e: no effective rest timer) when inside an inn or a designated wilderness rest zone.

We already have the technology. Before the Amn-Gate war blew up Beregost, you could purchase a key from Sam Feldepost and rest. Resting consumed the key.

Secondly,

Sapper Woody, who plays the powerful GISH build has 87 minutes to go without having to rest.

I play something that I prefer to call "Magic Warrior" over "gish", where I do my damnedest to avoid having to cast spells only for them to be dispelled 24/7 or run out during DM events - instead saving them for debuffs and steroids, maybe with a few hour/cl spells. Shield is the exception, but usually I don't need it.

Or didn't need to need it before someone decided 45 AC is no longer the ideal but 9001 is the absolute minimum, with compulsory Mirror image and displacement. *cough CR 15 area that has a mob with 27 AB that deals 10+ damage, an on-hit effect, with high amount of attacks/round*


So debuffs, steroids and blasts. I save on these until the server itself deems it worthy to spawn me a large number of spawns because I consider the act of running around and gathering spawns to cast a burst spell to be metagaming (but that's just me). For most stuff, I chip away at with 16-24 damage melee strikes to whittle down their infinite HP that's been given to compensate for the WM/FB and whatever other instakill builds so they no longer instakill stuff.

Even with how much I try to save on my spells, I run out of them WAY before your targeted power-gish of Reineke even flinches. Stuff has a lot of AC so needs it debuffed. Stuff does lot of damage so needs it debuffed. Stuff keeps rolling 20s so I need a mirror image steroid. CR 15 stuff decides to have 27 AB or other delicious things (best being a 33 AB troll that Valefort told me has a 0.37% chance of happening. Happened to me frequently enough to give up and stop trying. I should play the anti-lottery I guess.)

So who gets screwed over? That person who is barely holding on to having any PvE enjoyment of this server. Who laughs? The people targeted.

At first I thought you were arguing against me. But you're actually saying the same thing I am, that it wouldn't affect the very people that it would be targeting, but would affect others, widening the gap in power, instead of diminishing it.

and also noted several times before in the thread. you gave it numbers and stats that back it up and confirm it better.

it is possible to build a gish that was affected by a rest timer change, but it would just be adjusted to.

the best to come out of this would be to greatly reduce the rest areas inside of dungeons. obviously the places that it would suit best would be in higher level areas and at the discretion of the team.

[Steve]

@ Sapper- I guess you proved me wrong—we should be QUADRUPLING the Rest Timer, then. Haha. Because as you do elegantly pointed it out, your build and all the others you deem equal to your build show us there is a serious problem on this Server.

I'd also like to see the tally behind your 87 minutes. Because if your CL 29 is soloing some Bosses, those bosses need some creative tailoring.

But in general, calling this a nerf insults the correct usage of the word! No power/mechanics are being reduced, literally. Only the ability to be buffed, constantly.

Now, if some builds can stay fully buffed for 87 minutes AND have AoO spells or damage spells, let's see your spellbook.

[Steve]

BTW, removing the Rest Timer would only make sense if Teleport and Tree Stride regain their 30 minute cooldown.

[Sapper Woody]

@ Sapper- I guess you proved me wrong—we should be QUADRUPLING the Rest Timer, then. Haha. Because as you do elegantly pointed it out, your build and all the others you deem equal to your build show us there is a serious problem on this Server.

I'd also like to see the tally behind your 87 minutes. Because if your CL 29 is soloing some Bosses, those bosses need some creative tailoring.

But in general, calling this a nerf insults the correct usage of the word! No power/mechanics are being reduced, literally. Only the ability to be buffed, constantly.

Now, if some builds can stay fully buffed for 87 minutes AND have AoO spells or damage spells, let's see your spellbook.

The 87 minutes comes from the fact that I use extend spell for my min/CL buffs, so 58 minutes long there. Then I have backup non-extended buffs, so 29 more minutes for a total of 87.

Now, my build has purely wards prepared. The only offensive spells I have prepared are one low level fire spell for the single troll in the gnoll cave, and then Mord's, in case of PvP. The rest are defensive or RP (water-breathing, detect magic, etc).

As far as the bosses I can handle, I can solo the pit fiend in Nashkel Mines, the Black Dragon in serpent hills, and the Serpent Queen in serpent hills. The serpent queen I need a heal pot to solo, since she has that stupid damage shield. I can do the lizards in the mountains, as well. I haven't tried soloing anything else, so I'm not sure what else I could do.

But my point is, your proposal seems to be targeted at gishes, when in reality it wouldn't affect most of us. It would only affect others. And then my second point is, even if it did affect gishes, it wouldn't affect all those other classes who can do the same thing. So it would remove an ability to solo content from one class, while leaving it intact for another.

Now, if you want to talk about tweaking the bosses so they can't be soloed, that's another discussion, and one in which I'm not sure which way I'd lean. I mean, I prefer running groups and RP. But being able to solo some of the content is nice when I just want to do a quick loot run and I don't have anyone to RP with, or run with me.

[Steve]

My proposal targets the example given that gishes are so powerful, content is balanced on them. That they occupy multiple archetypes that once defined a classic D&D group, where specialty reigns supreme, thus a total group is the way to progress.

My point is that if buffing allows a build an unlimited amount of time to be at maximum power, how does that reality effect all other builds, in direct relation to how Content is added and/or managed?

I concede that there are examples given where buffing gishes can easily handle a doubling Rest timer, thus, the change causes no difference either way.

Now, thanks to AC81, the proposal to remove “wild” Resting from the Server, and limit it to place (inns taverns guild halls, etc.), but allow it to be free from any Timer. There are a few ways to abuse such a change, like Teleporting to Bosses, kill&loot then teleport back to Home, rinse and repeat for all the bosses for loot farming. But otherwise it presents a path to changing the buffing paradigm...though STILL Content needs to be updated to challenge such of the most powerful builds, where it hurts THEM, specifically. Like, Mords on every boss! Like, better spell selections that go after various weakness (like low Reflex and lack of Evasion). Like, adding Improved Disarm feat. Like, adding minions to Bosses that require strategy in order to overcome.

But I think it is fair to say that, if the Server continues forward with a paradigm of 24/7 buffs and THAT mechanical power dynamic, it will literally dictate a Magic First, Magic Only response to everything, and that controls how Content is developed. Boo!

[Sun Wukong]

My proposal targets the example given that gishes are so powerful, content is balanced on them. That they occupy multiple archetypes that once defined a classic D&D group, where specialty reigns supreme, thus a total group is the way to progress.

And here is that HiPSing Frenzied Weapon Master still rubbing its bottocks in the face of that sentiment of yours.

And actually, I have never had a game of tabletop where I would have had this mysterious 'classic D&D group' of yours. If you have three players out of four who want to be wizards, you have three players out of four that play wizards.

Not to mention that BGTSCC is not a game of tabletop with one DM controlling the setting for a small group of players, this server is more akin to a MMO server where you can go on for years without even seeing a single DM event take place.


And once again, it would not punish the 'dreadful gishes of Arcane or Divine variety' - only the other caster types. A bad idea, is a bad idea.

[Sapper Woody]

My proposal targets the example given that gishes are so powerful, content is balanced on them. That they occupy multiple archetypes that once defined a classic D&D group, where specialty reigns supreme, thus a total group is the way to progress.

My point is that if buffing allows a build an unlimited amount of time to be at maximum power, how does that reality effect all other builds, in direct relation to how Content is added and/or managed?

I concede that there are examples given where buffing gishes can easily handle a doubling Rest timer, thus, the change causes no difference either way.

Now, thanks to AC81, the proposal to remove “wild” Resting from the Server, and limit it to place (inns taverns guild halls, etc.), but allow it to be free from any Timer. There are a few ways to abuse such a change, like Teleporting to Bosses, kill&loot then teleport back to Home, rinse and repeat for all the bosses for loot farming. But otherwise it presents a path to changing the buffing paradigm...though STILL Content needs to be updated to challenge such of the most powerful builds, where it hurts THEM, specifically. Like, Mords on every boss! Like, better spell selections that go after various weakness (like low Reflex and lack of Evasion). Like, adding Improved Disarm feat. Like, adding minions to Bosses that require strategy in order to overcome.

But I think it is fair to say that, if the Server continues forward with a paradigm of 24/7 buffs and THAT mechanical power dynamic, it will literally dictate a Magic First, Magic Only response to everything, and that controls how Content is developed. Boo!

The part where I disagree with you is in your first and last paragraphs. My Gish is powerful. I'll not deny that. But I have to choose between being able to hit things with a sword and survive, or be a sub-par caster, each time I rest. I'm not filling both the wizard slot and the front line slot. I'm only filling the front line slot.

As to your last paragraph, an excellent example is that even when my toon is fully buffed, including temporary buffs like iron body and tenser's, only then can I do some content that is easy for a Monk30, who relies on only a couple of monk abilities.

My Gish uses his buffs and wards to be equal to a fighter filling the same role. I don't become more powerful than he does, I become equal to him. It's the same destination a different route. One is not better than the other; they are basically equal. But, by choosing this route, I actually gimp myself in other areas. PvP for instance. A nice geared fighter will be at max power level at all times. If a fight breaks out, he's ready. My Gish has to either try to get away, or hope he's already warded enough. Then, if he is, a simple mord's and he's toast.

So, again, what you're doing is not helping balance. It's adding to imbalance. It would be taking away from diversity, which is never good in any game. A gish is not OP; not compared to other builds. He is simply as powerful as they are. Taking away that ability would be to take away another viable option for achieving the same level of power as other builds.

Again, as an easy, yet powerful example: My gish fought Adallan, a level 30 monk. To even be able to stand toe to toe with him, my gish had to be fully warded. Same when my gish fought Derik. He allowed my gish three wards, I think. Maybe four. But my gish got destroyed. But when my gish was fully warded to fight others, it became a fair fight.

Essentially, my gish's role is that of front line combatant. Not blaster, not controller, not healer, and not even really damage (he does an average of 35dmg per hit with IPA). His role is to be in front. As I said before, if we take that away, we are taking away from diversity. Taking diversity away from a game makes it become more stale and stagnated. Options should be added, not taken away.

Edited to add: Another thing to consider is the removal of persistent spell on this server. That is something that greatly changes gishes. If there were persistent spell, then gishes wouldn't have to rest, ever. But we don't have that.

[Steve]

@ Sapper (and to an extent, Sir Monkeymus):

You'll have to convince the QC and the Devs then, because they say different. They are the ones building and testing Content.

[Steve]

And here is that HiPSing Frenzied Weapon Master still rubbing its bottocks in the face of that sentiment of yours.

Show me a pic of your build taking down the Balor. Or another Boss, solo. Then we can talk.

[Sapper Woody]

@ Sapper (and to an extent, Sir Monkeymus):

You'll have to convince the QC and the Devs then, because they say different. They are the ones building and testing Content.

If their goal is to balance gameplay around some people being able to solo the content and some not, then balancing it around gishes is perfect. Because they are by far not the most powerful soloers. So I have no problem with them balancing it around gishes.

[Steve]

I think it is more that Gishes are already too powerful and thus all Content must be tailored to not give them any more power.

[aaron22]

clerics, FVSs and bard gishes are too powerful, but arcane gishes like sapper's are not too powerful. they are middle of the pack. somewhere just ahead of rangers and behind pali. what are you comparing the wizgish with that you think they are too powerful?

[aaron22]

clerics, FVSs and bard gishes are too powerful, but arcane gishes like sapper's are not too powerful. they are middle of the pack. somewhere just ahead of rangers and behind pali. what are you comparing the wizgish with that you think they are too powerful?

edit: caster wiz is so much more powerful... so much more.

[Sun Wukong]

And here is that HiPSing Frenzied Weapon Master still rubbing its bottocks in the face of that sentiment of yours.

Show me a pic of your build taking down the Balor. Or another Boss, solo. Then we can talk.

*Rolls the build, grandfathers some equipment, goes to Hilltop Ruins, slays the Kobold Chieftain, the Wyrmling, and the Gibberling Chieftain.* So, lets talk, I slew three bosses.

Steve, how about you show me some basic understanding of the actual game mechanics before you go on insisting on game changes that adversely affect other players?

[Steve]

I am not convinced a arcane gish, like a Wizard +, is too powerful. But for example, Shapechange just received a 100% spell failure in Shape so that a WizGish cannot be both better than a melee in shape, and as well, sling spells (reserved for the true caster?!?).

Nonetheless, I have a at Lvl 30: 32 CL, 28 CL and 26 CL builds. None are at Level 30, but my experience is that the CL 32 is untouchable, the CL 28 is untouchable, the CL 26 gets dispelled often enough to frustrate.

Dispelling can be easily mitigated with Spell Slot Gear—except for poor Hawke! —or with scrolls/potions/consumables.

But still, innate caster/gish buffing at a 24/7 rate skews the game, I'd say. Some may say certain spells skew the game, and we could rehash that, but in another thread please.

If the Content is balanced off of gishy Cleric, Favored Soul and/or Bard, then...FRICKIN' BAN HAMMER ALREADY!!

j/k

You know I get all cuddly in a Favored Bard Priest ERP sandwich. (I so want to Hi someone right now, but...I'm not into getting Forum banned this week! lol)