100% Optional Permadeath Mode

[Hoihe]

If you ask for permadeath to exist so that players have a deterrent, item loss perfectly fulfills that role. It does not hurt people like me whose entire enjoyment is made or broken depending on the quality of their mask, but it instead hurts everyone equally.

It doesn't matter if you consider your PC to be a chess piece or a better world to live in. Items are worth the same to you. For a grinder/pvper, items are the endgoal. For a storyteller/character experiencer, items hold story or sentimental value, or act as a means to an end.

but to me. i dont think of this as try to convince people to lose things they cherish. i feel like i am offering something that gives. gives a reason to love that toon. give a reason to feel good about that item. give a sense of doing something that actually means something in our little make believe world. that want of a child to have a statue built because of your heroics. make that a reality a possibility if you do the right things at the right times. or be that villain that overcame the odds and really set (x) in motion. gathered the right allies and used power and fear to turn the world on its head.

all you guys.. im not a PvPer. i suck at PvP kinda. i am pretty good at PvE. not the best. im pretty good at building. not the best. i have a pretty substantial collection of items and coins. not the best. i dont want to have the best gear or the best toon or the best reputation or whatever. i just want my characters actions to mean something. i want my character to earn them. that is it. it doesnt mean anything when its easy. anything worth having is difficult to achieve.

For people who play exactly to do three things:

Collect Past Experiences that interact with the designed personality to provide a unique perspective.

Permanent loss of access to that perspective is a deterrent from even playing. I've a few friends who rarely visit the forums who would quit BGTSCC if it went permadeath.

[Reckeo]

item loss perfectly fulfills that role.

Item loss as "consequences" is a joke. Recovering from it is simply matter of spending a bit of time and essntually equivalent of "no consequences for your actions". One could also always roll a class that does not rely on items at all.

This. The idea of creating classes that do not rely on items would make a huge surge, and that is all that we would start to see moving forward. Probably a lot of monks and PRC's that only rely upon a different set of broken mechanics than what we are seeing right now.

I also think there is a need to stress the difference between that which would be of regular consequence (something bad happening to recover from), from a sense of TOTAL LOSS and consequence IE perma-death (something bad an unable to recover from).

[chad878262]

nah...with epic shops the vast majority of any potential random item selection loss upon a death is no different than it is pre-epic today... Whereas at level 29 or less you lose X hours of game time regaining lost XP, you would instead lose some game time putting together the gold to replace the lost item...or more likely you already have the gold on the PC and just have to find a merchant or make the trip to Avernus or Doron Amar or wherever to replace the item lost (since at some point gold will just start accumulating on any epic character who's fully decked out.)

[NegInfinity]

I've a few friends who rarely visit the forums who would quit BGTSCC if it went permadeath.

This point is moot, because nobody is implementing "permadeath for everybody" right now.

Permanent loss of access to that perspective is a deterrent from even playing.

Lack of possibility of permanent loss is deterrent of playing.

The point of roleplaying is to have consequences of your actions, and some of those must be irreversible. When the consequences no longer involve kicking the bucket for real, it means there are no risks. You can undo anything you've done. There's nobody in the wolrd that could possibly oppose you. It is only matter of time - you can keep trying forever, and you'll unavoidably find one approach that works. That ultimately removes any sort of thrill or challenge from the game, and renders it meaningless.

At this point the only thing left to do would be to jump into nearby volkano. Except even that won't kill you.

Have you seen this comic?

Hidden: show

The first half is what playing on "you can't die" server would feel like.

It is an insult to the player.

[NegInfinity]

Oh, and one more thing. If somebody is looking for "I can't die" kind of server, I believe a certain highly popular "social server" can be easily found on nwnlist. It caters to that approach. No point in making such rulings on bgtscc as well.

[Reckeo]

Comic was hilarious.

While I'm arguing against the perma-death situation on the server, its mostly because I don't feel it fits the setting of High magic. Even Dark Souls/Demons souls is low magic. I've died plenty of stupid/broken ways in that game, not as a result of poorly playing or managing my character, but because the physics were poorly implemented, or designed to punish the character in a faux sense of 'oh the world is so dangerous', instead of admitting some of the programming was poor in implementation. I've seen a knight rush towards me with a halbred, miss completely, then the halbred magically turns into a heat-seeking projectile that one shots my character (who was two feet to the side and had their shield up, and no it wasn't a swing).

It's a comparison of two completely opposite sides of the spectrum. The games that spoon feed me? I don't play them. The RP'ers that role play Mary Sues? I go about my business and let them go about theirs. Doesn't mean I'm gonna make a cardboard sign and protest against them, be disrespectful against their role play or try to make them conform to what my depiction of role play is. Live and let live, or in this case, die and let die.

Afterall, they will eventually get bored with the character and stop playing them anyway right? A slow rot instead of a swift event leading to permanent death. Yeah, not exactly the stuff of heroes, but we know who these players are already, don't we?

[NegInfinity]

Comic was hilarious.

While I'm arguing against the perma-death situation on the server, its mostly because I don't feel it fits the setting of High magic. Even Dark Souls/Demons souls is low magic. I've died plenty of stupid/broken ways in that game, not as a result of poorly playing or managing my character, but because the physics were poorly implemented, or designed to punish the character in a faux sense of 'oh the world is so dangerous', instead of admitting some of the programming was poor in implementation. I've seen a knight rush towards me with a halbred, miss completely, then the halbred magically turns into a heat-seeking projectile that one shots my character (who was two feet to the side and had their shield up, and no it wasn't a swing).

It's a comparison of two completely opposite sides of the spectrum. The games that spoon feed me? I don't play them. The RP'ers that role play Mary Sues? I go about my business and let them go about theirs. Doesn't mean I'm gonna make a cardboard sign and protest against them, be disrespectful against their role play or try to make them conform to what my depiction of role play is. Live and let live, or in this case, die and let die.

Afterall, they will eventually get bored with the character and stop playing them anyway right? A slow rot instead of a swift event leading to permanent death. Yeah, not exactly the stuff of heroes, but we know who these players are already, don't we?

The problem with previous hoihe post was "OOC rulling: all deaths are reversible" idea. That was the primary reason for my response.

This kind of idea would absolutely kill bgtscc for me, if implemented. There would be zero reason to continue playing if it is implemented.

RP servers are not exactly common, especially if we're talking about EU location. If BG is dead, there aren't that many alternatives left.

While I don't propose to implement permadeath from all sources for all players, possibility of permadeath via permastrike certainly should remain available, and frequency of permastrikes could be increased. It is a critically important element that should not be removed.

[Hoihe]

Comic was hilarious.

While I'm arguing against the perma-death situation on the server, its mostly because I don't feel it fits the setting of High magic. Even Dark Souls/Demons souls is low magic. I've died plenty of stupid/broken ways in that game, not as a result of poorly playing or managing my character, but because the physics were poorly implemented, or designed to punish the character in a faux sense of 'oh the world is so dangerous', instead of admitting some of the programming was poor in implementation. I've seen a knight rush towards me with a halbred, miss completely, then the halbred magically turns into a heat-seeking projectile that one shots my character (who was two feet to the side and had their shield up, and no it wasn't a swing).

It's a comparison of two completely opposite sides of the spectrum. The games that spoon feed me? I don't play them. The RP'ers that role play Mary Sues? I go about my business and let them go about theirs. Doesn't mean I'm gonna make a cardboard sign and protest against them, be disrespectful against their role play or try to make them conform to what my depiction of role play is. Live and let live, or in this case, die and let die.

Afterall, they will eventually get bored with the character and stop playing them anyway right? A slow rot instead of a swift event leading to permanent death. Yeah, not exactly the stuff of heroes, but we know who these players are already, don't we?

The problem with previous hoihe post was "OOC rulling: all deaths are reversible" idea. That was the primary reason for my response.

This kind of idea would absolutely kill bgtscc for me, if implemented. There would be zero reason to continue playing if it is implemented.

RP servers are not exactly common, especially if we're talking about EU location. If BG is dead, there aren't that many alternatives left.

While I don't propose to implement permadeath from all sources for all players, possibility of permadeath via permastrike certainly should remain available, and frequency of permastrikes could be increased. It is a critically important element that should not be removed.

Only if you make it an option of "Be reset to level 1 and lose all your gear except for 3" or permastrike.

[aaron22]

yes. this is called separating the heroes from the pack. heroes risk life and limb to better the world around themselves. in fact this would likely be the best part of a server in permadeath mode. who out there is a chicken and who is a hawk?

Dude, do you want to be a lone hawk in a desert? "Lone" as in you'll be the only living thing in 500 mile radius.

It is not about "heroes", it is about having other people to interact with. Who is going to appreciate heroes when there's no one around?

obviously i do not think that would be the case. i feel it is more like fulton's folly here.

[Incarnate]

I'm also strongly against the idea of trying to force permadeath on the entire server. Just because a handful of you might think it's a great idea doesn't mean everyone else will be thrilled at the concept. If you want your hardcore experience, you can already have it. You don't need the server to enforce it for you.

I completely agree.. In fact, if they so want, they can just self-enforce it.
The die 3 times, they then delete the character - simple.

[Hoihe]

Comic was hilarious.

While I'm arguing against the perma-death situation on the server, its mostly because I don't feel it fits the setting of High magic. Even Dark Souls/Demons souls is low magic. I've died plenty of stupid/broken ways in that game, not as a result of poorly playing or managing my character, but because the physics were poorly implemented, or designed to punish the character in a faux sense of 'oh the world is so dangerous', instead of admitting some of the programming was poor in implementation. I've seen a knight rush towards me with a halbred, miss completely, then the halbred magically turns into a heat-seeking projectile that one shots my character (who was two feet to the side and had their shield up, and no it wasn't a swing).

It's a comparison of two completely opposite sides of the spectrum. The games that spoon feed me? I don't play them. The RP'ers that role play Mary Sues? I go about my business and let them go about theirs. Doesn't mean I'm gonna make a cardboard sign and protest against them, be disrespectful against their role play or try to make them conform to what my depiction of role play is. Live and let live, or in this case, die and let die.

Afterall, they will eventually get bored with the character and stop playing them anyway right? A slow rot instead of a swift event leading to permanent death. Yeah, not exactly the stuff of heroes, but we know who these players are already, don't we?

Regarding mary sues,

the OP discusses them.

Permanent Death will invariably lead to the creation of mary sues.

We're going with the following assumption: You want to possess at least one character that has a particular past experience or perspective across all your RP media, and BGTSCC is the ideal ground for that perspective to exist.

You can either design a character that already has this trait, but by doing so you literally make a mary sue.

You can also instead plant a number of "seeds" that are vulnerable to acquire this trait (their personality makes them likely to experience X, or you tip the DM team off that you're cool with X happening to you, or etc.) The character is designed, other than this "backdoor to their psyche" completely independent of this trait. They are a full and proper character that has realistic wants and fears and flaws and boons.

However, the character is not very enjoyable until they get this trait. You can either force the issue, or soldier on knowing that when it happens it will pay off big time.

Note "knowing". The ability to play a non-mary sue that is enjoyable hinges on the ability to eventually fulfil that passive quest.

Your character now becomes ideal, but that passive trait is not the focal point, it merely provides a tone to their new experiences. You have the perfect character! You enjoy roleplaying at long last and reap the profits of your investments. All the while, your character is anything but a mary sure.

However, you lose this character. You are then forced to decide if you want to set up another self-sufficient character who may encounter the desired trait, or just design a character from the ground up with this trait?

As a simple consequence of wanting to maximize your pleasure, designing a character that already is enjoyable will almost guarantee a mary sue. Wish all you might to avoid making a mary sue, you decide your life is shitty enough as it is to invest your negative balance of energy into the non-guaranteed possibility of getting an enjoyable character in a few months/years, and you want that trait NOW for sake of your escapism. So you just make a mary sue. You do your best not to make a mary sue but the mere fact that the character is created with this trait in mind guarantees that they will become a mary sue.


You can do your best to avoid making a mary sue, but you'll be making hilarious comprimises such as highly volatile personality and background, a ridiculous amount of flaws to prove they are NOT a mary sue and so on. All the while, at the core, due to the trait being the character's singular purpose... you are fighting an impossible battle.

This all would never have happened if your well balanced character who naturally acquired the needed trait was left untouched by OOC restrictions. Now, what happens if an IC event removes the desired trait without killing the PC? Well, it'll be a difficult process thanks to the weight, and depending on whether the PC wants that trait or not, either reacquired or otherwise solved in an organic, logical way.

[aaron22]

I'm also strongly against the idea of trying to force permadeath on the entire server. Just because a handful of you might think it's a great idea doesn't mean everyone else will be thrilled at the concept. If you want your hardcore experience, you can already have it. You don't need the server to enforce it for you.

I completely agree.. In fact, if they so want, they can just self-enforce it.
Dying 3 times, delete the character - simple.

or maybe i can just role play that we are actually not on the prime but actually a perverse illusion of archeron. it explains why i can kill the same monsters again and again and why that guy i just chopped the head off of and fed to trolls is somehow back at the merchant telling me how tough he is.

simple.

i would say that sure, we should just roleplay completely different aspects of life and death. but doesnt that just get us further from good?

[NegInfinity]

"Be reset to level 1

No. Merely being reset to level 1 is not sufficient.

There needs to be a chance of character deaths. XP, gold, items - all of it can be recovered, in time.

Regarding mary sues,

the OP discusses them.

Permanent Death will invariably lead to the creation of mary sues.

It is other way around. Lack of permadeath and consequences begets mary sues. Go to that server I mentioned and see for yourself. Mary Sue is born when player is trying to compensate for lack of something in their life, so they create a super-perfect character for the setting to live happily ever after in the area where they can't die and can keep pretending being perfect, beautiful and loved by everybody.

This kind of roleplay usually hits a wall in case consequences are around, and is not possible on a permadeath character.

The safer the setting is, the more Mary Sues you're going to see.

[Incarnate]

The problem with previous hoihe post was "OOC rulling: all deaths are reversible" idea. That was the primary reason for my response.

This kind of idea would absolutely kill bgtscc for me, if implemented. There would be zero reason to continue playing if it is implemented.

I don't know if you realize this - Forgotten Realms is a high magic setting, and deaths ARE reversible. Permadeath's AREN'T - which is essentially what this boils down to.

Permadeath should simply equal the character be non-selectable.
True Permadeath should be when the character the character can only be brought back to life via either divine or other entity's intervention - aKa DM intevention which is completely different from DM Assistance.

IF there should be any permadeath in place, the minimum and maximum level difference needs to be reduced considerably, so the low level characters actual stand a chance against higher level characters - like level 10 maximum, however that would require a ton of work to make that way, plus further more I'm sure there are lot of people would stop playing altogether on the server is this was imlemented.

However, I'm not for permadeath in a high magic setting, as in completely removing a character from the game with no means of reversing it - it simply doesn't make any sense lore & rp-wise when there is magic that is powerful enough to bring characters back from the dead.

[Hoihe]

"Be reset to level 1

No. Merely being reset to level 1 is not sufficient.

There needs to be a chance of character deaths. XP, gold, items - all of it can be recovered, in time.

Regarding mary sues,

the OP discusses them.

Permanent Death will invariably lead to the creation of mary sues.

It is other way around. Lack of permadeath and consequences begets mary sues. Go to that server I mentioned and see for yourself. Mary Sue is born when player is trying to compensate for lack of something in their life, so they create a super-perfect character for the setting to live happily ever after in the area where they can't die and can keep pretending being perfect, beautiful and loved by everybody.

This kind of roleplay usually hits a wall in case consequences are around, and is not possible on a permadeath character.

The safer the setting is, the more Mary Sues you're going to see.

A well-rounded character is protected from mary sueism.

But why should I make a well rounded character who has the possibility of acquiring the desired trait when chances are, the moment that character becomes fun I lose her?

I might as well maximise my time spent RPing and just create mass produced variants of "CENTRAL TRAIT" + peripheries.


In a non permadeath setting, you aren't pressurized into making a mary sue. Your character will be "WELL ROUNDED CENTRAL CHARACTER" + "peripherical central trait that affects perspective, doesn't define it."