100% Optional Permadeath Mode

[chad878262]

What CR 15 area requires +4 gear for a level appropriate PC to explore? I disagree with that statement entirely! Now, what I would say MIGHT be required for SOME builds once you get to that level is utilizing consumables such as potions/wands of mage armor, barkskin, shield and heroism... However, that is ONLY if you are trying to solo area's rather than grouping up and have built an RP concept that is below average build wise. I have a level 15 Ranger PC with no muled gear (one of his long swords is a +1 elven, if I recall) so I am happy to explore said area if there is a concern on the balance.

CR15 means it should be balanced for a party of 3-5 level 15 PC's. If you are level 18 then the CR might be increasing to 17 when solo, so it will likely still be challenging if the build isn't fairly strong.

As to what 'wouldn't be so bad' and your friend... I question how they can ONLY get enjoyment by playing their one character and no other new concept will work... I further question how your argument has merit when in this very instance you use as example you admit the DMs allowed the character to live on. So it seems the existing rules with humans to make judgement calls in fact did work out for your friend and they continue(d) playing the PC.

EDIT: As to RP superiority, I have said in a recent thread that anyone who RP's with you would agree you're a superb RP'er. I can't speak for others, but personally I do not see pro/con perma-death as having anything to do with the quality of one's RP. We can all disagree on mechanical stuff without it having any meaning what-so-ever on one's skill at RP.

[aaron22]

in your example 1 hoihe, and in relation to other posts you have made, i get the sense that you might be too attached to your character. perhaps i am not attached enough and why your RP may be better than mine. more consistent at the very least. but this is where we run into a great disconnect. If my character tries something "heroic" and fails and dies forever. at worst i would ponder how i could have done this and that better. why i choose this action as apposed to that action. but i would not feel a huge loss to self for the character. i have a whole real life that fills any void that the minor loss of a series of 1s and 0s could ever create.

this is just a little video game. it will go on with or without me and you. but is better with us all. maybe not me, sorry. im not going anywhere. it is also not dependent on any character either. not one. there are lots here. niches filled to the rafters.

have fun. its a video game.

[Flasmix]

If people want to do some sort of Permadeath thing, a token in your inventory that could activate it to 'On' or 'Off' would be the easiest way of going about it. The token doesn't start in your inventory by default, you have to pick it up from an NPC who explains what it means first. Thus; no accidental activates.

This way if I'm transitioning, I can turn it off so if there's some lured mob waiting right there for me I'm not immediately surrounded and mobbed. For added fun, make your corpse fully lootable! It'll be like good ol' UO where you can PK some miner scrub and loot their precious pick axe. (Then kill the pack horse)

Other option, is instead of immediate permadeath it gives you a permastrike. Server already has a 3 permastrike rule, thus you can play on a 3-life system type thing.

Whatever people choose, it shouldn't be forced on others and should be completely optional.

[NegInfinity]

As an exception to the current permadeath rules being "not so bad", I know a player who due to a DM event ended up permakilling*/retiring a PC.

I know two people who got permakilled by DM events and thought it was awesome in both cases.

I personally seek to retire my characters at the height of their career. There were some highly satisfying endings so far.

Example 2, indirect relation: Person on BGTSCC discord claimed that +4 gear should be possessed by level 15 characters.

I can only conclude that this person is completely incompetent when it comes to BGTSCC/NWN2 mechanics and doesn't know how to play the game.

This statement is ridiculous, and you can't base any reasoning on it.

examine Baystation 12's history. It involved 1 mass exodus of High-RPer crowd once to evade the OOC atmosphere,

I have no interest in baystation. This argument is based on presumption that permadeath would create OOC atmosphere and that needs to be proven. There were many other servers that fell for many different reasons. Skullport pretty much bit the dust again recently. Sigil struggles due to outcome of some admin decision. "This too, shall pass" as they say.

I agree with aaron. You seem to be overly attached to your character and afraid to lose him/her/them. Not sure if this is good or bad, but in this case I'd try to get it out of my system asap by feeding the character to death NPC in nexus.

[Hoihe]

If people want to do some sort of Permadeath thing, a token in your inventory that could activate it to 'On' or 'Off' would be the easiest way of going about it. The token doesn't start in your inventory by default, you have to pick it up from an NPC who explains what it means first. Thus; no accidental activates.

This way if I'm transitioning, I can turn it off so if there's some lured mob waiting right there for me I'm not immediately surrounded and mobbed. For added fun, make your corpse fully lootable! It'll be like good ol' UO where you can PK some miner scrub and loot their precious pick axe. (Then kill the pack horse)

Other option, is instead of immediate permadeath it gives you a permastrike. Server already has a 3 permastrike rule, thus you can play on a 3-life system type thing.

Whatever people choose, it shouldn't be forced on others and should be completely optional.

If you give me the option to have item loss but no character loss, I'll take it even if optional. I enjoy that type of thing. I risk valuable stuff but don't risk the gateway to enjoyment.

What CR 15 area requires +4 gear for a level appropriate PC to explore? I disagree with that statement entirely! Now, what I would say MIGHT be required for SOME builds once you get to that level is utilizing consumables such as potions/wands of mage armor, barkskin, shield and heroism... However, that is ONLY if you are trying to solo area's rather than grouping up and have built an RP concept that is below average build wise. I have a level 15 Ranger PC with no muled gear (one of his long swords is a +1 elven, if I recall) so I am happy to explore said area if there is a concern on the balance.

CR15 means it should be balanced for a party of 3-5 level 15 PC's. If you are level 18 then the CR might be increasing to 17 when solo, so it will likely still be challenging if the build isn't fairly strong.

As to what 'wouldn't be so bad' and your friend... I question how they can ONLY get enjoyment by playing their one character and no other new concept will work... I further question how your argument has merit when in this very instance you use as example you admit the DMs allowed the character to live on. So it seems the existing rules with humans to make judgement calls in fact did work out for your friend and they continue(d) playing the PC.

EDIT: As to RP superiority, I have said in a recent thread that anyone who RP's with you would agree you're a superb RP'er. I can't speak for others, but personally I do not see pro/con perma-death as having anything to do with the quality of one's RP. We can all disagree on mechanical stuff without it having any meaning what-so-ever on one's skill at RP.

Frequently I've read that "Permanent death allows for more meaningful characters to exist" or "Permanent death is a MUST for an action to be worth anything" in this very thread. That seems to drive the point of "If you don't permadie, your RP is worse than mine."

in your example 1 hoihe, and in relation to other posts you have made, i get the sense that you might be too attached to your character. perhaps i am not attached enough and why your RP may be better than mine. more consistent at the very least. but this is where we run into a great disconnect. If my character tries something "heroic" and fails and dies forever. at worst i would ponder how i could have done this and that better. why i choose this action as apposed to that action. but i would not feel a huge loss to self for the character. i have a whole real life that fills any void that the minor loss of a series of 1s and 0s could ever create.

this is just a little video game. it will go on with or without me and you. but is better with us all. maybe not me, sorry. im not going anywhere. it is also not dependent on any character either. not one. there are lots here. niches filled to the rafters.

have fun. its a video game.

Follow this line of thought to understand where value of a character comes from, and why their loss is considered a price too high for anything:

You have something you find key enjoyment in. Have it be something that you cannot replicate across multiple characters easily. Like, a certain perspective born from past events or a certain personality.

You CAN play multiple characters, even those without any hint of enjoyable traits - even I am capable of that (wow!), but doing so doesn't really provide anywhere near the same satisfaction or enjoyment as I get when playing Hoihe (with a rather peculiar set of experiences gained on the server that would never fly as a character backstory) or Cienea (with a rather peculiar experience gained in the first 2 weeks of playing that I cannot replicate) or Flora (to copy a personality would require copying the same character) or Liria (Combination of personality AND peculiar experiences!).

Sure, Chief Petty Officer Regina Skyler, Dr. Runa Kovacs (and she's as much of a literal idealized self-insert and as I can think of) or Vesur Thunden are fun, but they're awfully underwhelming as a actual characters for me. When I play them, I play mostly because I'm in that peculiar mood that those characters fit just enough to become net positive for my time investment to their play.

Lose any of those three and I permanently, as a person, lose a venue of enjoyment.

I already had that happen with Cienea thanks to Baystation 12's bullmanure and it's left its mark.

It doesn't even have to be this line of approach. It can simply be a case of possessing a character that you play as a pure observer rather than experiencer. As a pure observer, you have none of the issues an experiencer has, even if you are on the pure character side.

The idea for the above is the following:
You have 4 characters.

1. Needs low emotional/intellectual investment and provides minimal stress (guilty fun character. Usually tends to be played in groups of friends as comic relief)
2. Needs
   high intellectual/emotional investment and provides minimal stress (non-intrigue, just classic D&D character that has no goals to change the server, just to make a name for themselves etc)
3. Needs low intellectual/emotional investment and has a chance to provide massive stress (Usually characters designed around mechanical player conflict. It's guilty fun like the 1st,but due to the way PvP happens there's a chance you'll end up dancing with the DMs)
4. Needs high intellectual/emotional investment and provides you with a constant source of stress in exchange for feeling fulfilled if things go right. (Intrigue based characters, or simply those that seem to make more of a world-impact than become famous

You had a stressful few days. Of this list, who would you play?

Now, let's assume you don't do PvP and also dislike playing comic relief. You are left with 2 and 4.

On a good day, you LOVE playing number four, but things are going too shitty right now to afford the added stress.

So you play number 2.

But number 2 is permanently dead because of something that happened a few days ago and you can't. And part of what made number 2 so fun is the social interactions they had whether for you to observe or to experience. You could roll a new character but those interactions would be forced if replicated, and stressful reforming if not.


As for example 1,

Yes, this only worked because of vague ruling. And it required the breaking of that already vague and weak ruling. Creating mechanical systems to support that ruling or making it more strict wouldn't have allowed that, and the player would have suffered.

If the optional permadeath mode existed, the player couldn't have decided to request an overview of this ruling. The ship, to quote Neginfinity, would have sailed.

I suppose an option would have been to create a new character from level 1 with the same name and looks etc, but then you'd run into the "Play your sheet rule", and if your PC was a grand bard or scholar, you'll need the levels to have the ranks in skills to support your RP.

[NegInfinity]

If people want to do some sort of Permadeath thing, a token in your inventory that could activate it to 'On' or 'Off' would be the easiest way of going about it.

In all honesty, can't we just implement this and see what happens instead of arguing?

There is already death counter tracker when you appear in fugue.

Basically simply adding few lines of code that checks "(("Number of death by players" + "number of deaths by monster") < number of lives) if "permadeath token found"" would do the trick.

To avoid item loss due to bugs we could simply kick permakilled characters from fugue into nexus and them there. This would require two more conditions to add to greeter npcs- "token present" + "permakilled" == "you're not allowed to enter"... plus exclude them from RCR.

This could probably be implemented in one evening.

Heck, I'd even volunteer to test it with brand new character, once I have the time.

[Hoihe]

If people want to do some sort of Permadeath thing, a token in your inventory that could activate it to 'On' or 'Off' would be the easiest way of going about it.

In all honesty, can't we just implement this and see what happens instead of arguing?

There is already death counter tracker when you appear in fugue.

Basically simply adding few lines of code that checks "(("Number of death by players" + "number of deaths by monster") < number of lives) if "permadeath token found"" would do the trick.

To avoid item loss due to bugs we could simply kick permakilled characters from fugue into nexus and them there. This would require two more conditions to add to greeter npcs- "token present" + "permakilled" == "you're not allowed to enter"... plus exclude them from RCR.

This could probably be implemented in one evening.

Death counter is was amusingly bugged the last time I ended up having the misfortune to check.

[NegInfinity]

Death counter is was amusingly bugged the last time I ended up having the misfortune to check.

The solution would be not to die in the first place so it remains at zero.

[Steve]

Take matters into your own hands: viewtopic.php?f=10&t=63279

Make an epic story out of it with others: viewtopic.php?f=17&t=63491

Thank you and good night!

[NegInfinity]

[quote="Steve"][/quote]
It is not fun when it is self-enforced.

[Steve]

Better than sitting around complaining about it!!

[aaron22]

ok some points here.
chad. permadeath is very much a RP thing. almost all (so i dont offend the people who do out there that i have never met) players do not act as though their own mortality is at stake. this greatly affects RP. it effects what they do and how they do it and who they do this with and what they talk about and how they talk about it and who they talk about it to. so.. in other words.. everything.

you can be an amazing RPer. but it is not the RPers fault that the game is letting them down and providing an environment that has ZERO mortality. that is why i defend the "all or none" philosophy. because it is the setting we are RPing in that is the problem. great RP is gonna be here one way or another. but the setting that we all RP in is messed up. permadeath is not an OOC issue. it is strictly a IC issue that is a detriment to all our RP.

if in RL we all knew we could not die. how do you think people would act? like lunatics? yep. everyone would try to jump the grand canyon in a homemade rocket bike made of plutonium. we would make super rocket jet packs to launch at the moon and other planets. we would punch brock lesner in the face. that is how "almost" everyone on the server plays. i do it too. i was level 25 and took on the FGK just to see how the mob will react and what i need to prepare for the next time i face him. say you dont do this?

Neginfinity. what would be the point? a volunteer company of this types would do nothing but show those who do this how insane everyone who isnt is. how reckless and how the lack of mortality really affects what is going on.

i dont want a change in the rules people. i would be all for it if it happened but im not stupid either. i want players to realize that you are not RPing your morality correctly because you are immortal and no matter what you will find a way to justify your immortal actions. I dont either. I am just as guilty as anyone else.. maybe moreso because i know im doing it.

[Young Werther]

I don't really see why it has to be a programmed setting when self enforcing would yield the same result. If you cheat you really don't want it do you?

I've played a perma-death server and found it to be very enjoyable up until they became a ghost town. Why? I'd hazard a guess that restarting and doing all the quests again was a major bore for the majority.

[Reckeo]

Better than sitting around complaining about it!!

+1

[NegInfinity]

Neginfinity. what would be the point?

People who want the policy (like Sun Wukong) would be able to utilize it.

As I said, I briefly played this kind of system before and it can be fun. Enforcing it upon everybody, however, may not be the best idea.

In all honesty, "all or nothing" argument reminds me arguments for enabling item drop on death in a survival game I played.

Expectation: "Enabling item drop on death would add more realism! Because you'll try to avoid losing your stuff and will be careful.".
Reality: Enabling item drop on death, causes character to madly rush to the last death location naked and without equipment in attempt to retreive their stuff, completely ignoring any danger along the way. Among people who voted for enabling the feature there were plenty of hardcore PVPers who wanted ability to rob other characters.

That's why I propose to just create a quick and dirty implementation and test it. People imagine all kind of stuff in their mind, and have different ideas of "what it will be like". Most likely they're wrong and reality is different. For example, it is possible that both you and hoihe are wrong in estimation of permadeath impact.

So the best idea would be to test it.