100% Optional Permadeath Mode

[chad878262]

chad. permadeath is very much a RP thing. almost all (so i dont offend the people who do out there that i have never met) players do not act as though their own mortality is at stake. this greatly affects RP. it effects what they do and how they do it and who they do this with and what they talk about and how they talk about it and who they talk about it to. so.. in other words.. everything.

I disagree as there are aspects of this game which have nothing to do with death. In these instances such is not impacted by permadeath or not. In addition, at least with the group I spend most of my time with the vast majority of them RP exceedingly safe characters that rarely go to the more dangerous areas in or near their CR range. Honestly I'd say I am the most 'adventurous' of them. *shrug* My experience is that your statements don't hold true, though I certainly understand that your experience must prove otherwise. As I said previously, absolutes are rarely accurate. There are likely MANY who's RP is negatively impact by the fact that perma-death is a VERY rare occurrence on this server. However, there are at least some who's RP would never make you think that they had no fear of dying/losing their character. I would concede that MOST likely suffer from having no concern for their own mortality, but I cannot state that it affects all RP for all players, because I know for a fact it is not true through my own experience. I know players who have characters who have literally never died in PvP, PvE, or DM event... Never. Caution is a thing, even if the mechanics do not require it.

i dont want a change in the rules people. i would be all for it if it happened but im not stupid either. i want players to realize that you are not RPing your morality correctly because you are immortal and no matter what you will find a way to justify your immortal actions. I dont either. I am just as guilty as anyone else.. maybe moreso because i know im doing it.

This statement is simply false... Your experience may tell you that it is true in every case you have experienced, including your own personal experience. My experience tells me otherwise and if even one player is RP'ing their character's mortality correctly it destroys your argument, simply because your argument is based on absolutes. The simple truth is everyone's experience will vary, but there are some who very much do all they can to ensure their character's safety, within the bounds of the fact that their character has a dangerous profession (in some cases).

[Reckeo]

Neginfinity. what would be the point?

So the best idea would be to test it.

Let them test it in other games like you and I have, rather than turning the Server into an experimental medium for their projected imaginary outcome.

[Incarnate]

i dont want a change in the rules people. i would be all for it if it happened but im not stupid either. i want players to realize that you are not RPing your morality correctly because you are immortal and no matter what you will find a way to justify your immortal actions. I dont either. I am just as guilty as anyone else.. maybe moreso because i know im doing it.

I suggested permadeath be changed into making the character disabled rather than removed, and that putting in a certain amount of "lives" before it actually would disable your character. This way, characters could die, but without being permanently dead thanks to it being a high magic setting, where it is possible to bring people back from the dead. Many would probably not be brought back if the cost was too great, or they simply didn't have anyone who wanted to bring them back, or if they didn't know about their passing, etc.

Make death interactactable & reversible and suddenly death has alot more meaning and becomes impactful, where rp'ing morality and mortality would be impacted as well, because death would make it a much more immersive experience.

[aaron22]

ok. i played a character that i leveled from 1-29.7 and only encountered one death. not only that. i never muled. and built it on the fly with beginning statistics rolled instead and the extra 3 points i put onto my main attribute. this character was also brutal and tough. her first death was in a DM event and never played her after that. still have her as she technically didn't die, but it doesnt feel the same anymore. i experienced the whole server from sewers to avernus. i know what it looked like from my perspective and how counter productive RP with players that do not value mortality is.

so sure. i have not played on other NWN2 servers. fine. i get that. i also feel that even those people that claim to not act like i describe still do. look at hoihe when i called him out.

absolutes are unnecessary and i get ahead of myself with that. i do not sit over every players shoulder. all the time. obviously. but i honestly feel like the absolute is closer to the truth than not. you just dont realize it.

[Reckeo]

ok. i played a character that i leveled from 1-29.7 and only encountered one death. not only that. i never muled. and built it on the fly with beginning statistics rolled instead and the extra 3 points i put onto my main attribute. this character was also brutal and tough. her first death was in a DM event and never played her after that. still have her as she technically didn't die, but it doesnt feel the same anymore. i experienced the whole server from sewers to avernus. i know what it looked like from my perspective and how counter productive RP with players that do not value mortality is.

so sure. i have not played on other NWN2 servers. fine. i get that. i also feel that even those people that claim to not act like i describe still do. look at hoihe when i called him out.

absolutes are unnecessary and i get ahead of myself with that. i do not sit over every players shoulder. all the time. obviously. but i honestly feel like the absolute is closer to the truth than not. you just dont realize it.

I must admit to you making several extremely strong points in favor of perma-death that I agree with. Even when I play a character in game that dies, whether PvP or PvE or what have you, continuing to play them, whether Raise or Fugue or whatever, something about the event remains, and something get's taken away that is not replaced. That first death holds significant meaning in a way I am unable to place into words, but it is a feeling of loss that occurs. It is weak and barely noticeable, but it happens. A part of me says "That was it" and "oh well". The other part of me says "keep playing".

Every death gets easier after that, and yes, it holds no significant emotional impact whatsoever anymore (not that it was ever truly significant the first time either). However, this is my experience and I wouldn't assume it to be the same for anyone. Afterall, it is just a game.

However. Playing these games requires a ton of suspension of belief. Magic is not real. Dragons do not exist. In this particular setting they do. There are planes, and in the real world there are multi-verse theories that can explain alternate timelines, time travel, inter-galactic space travel so on and on and on it goes with no discernable end in sight. Such is the world of Forgotten Realms, and as such, perma-death does not make sense if the server is to remain true to it's founding setting.

If this were a Dark-Sun server, or perhaps another lower-magic type Role Play environment, I would argue for perma-death as part of the in game's universal mechanics, but as it stands, it does not make sense in the Forgotten Realms setting where our 'real world' notion of mortality only marginally applies.

[Sun Wukong]

Neginfinity. what would be the point?

So the best idea would be to test it.

Let them test it in other games like you and I have, rather than turning the Server into an experimental medium for their projected imaginary outcome.

Making science, making science!

[aaron22]

i understand suspension of belief. i am usually quick to remind people of this when realism comes into play and eathbound physics. it is also a game. that is a huge factor in this. maybe the biggest. a video game should have some degree of replayability. this is a fundamental aspect of a quality game.

but getting back to suspension of belief is why i ague to better the RP of mortality. elminister and drizzt or any hero of forgotten realms didnt act the way we act. Malice died in a chapel filled with her family. maybe it could be defended that her family would have no desire to resurrect their mother, but they also knew with her death that their house was gonna be shot. to ressurect her would at least keep the house for a little while longer.

that our suspension of belief needs a point at which you have crossed a line. a line at which we are not acting like madmen. one where we are not tempted by the setting that provides us immortality. even in lore of high magic we are not immortal.

an area the size of the sword coast with over 100 level 30 characters is a freak world that the forgotten realms rules never expected. the rules have a point at which they break down and things snowball into a paradigm of unintended abnormalities. this has compiled into what we have now and spouting rules that support them are legit, but have to be realized that the rules were not designed with what we have in mind. so a point needs to be addressed where the rules are held, but with an understanding of the anomaly that is our server.

[Hoihe]

Neginfinity. what would be the point?

People who want the policy (like Sun Wukong) would be able to utilize it.

As I said, I briefly played this kind of system before and it can be fun. Enforcing it upon everybody, however, may not be the best idea.

In all honesty, "all or nothing" argument reminds me arguments for enabling item drop on death in a survival game I played.

Expectation: "Enabling item drop on death would add more realism! Because you'll try to avoid losing your stuff and will be careful.".
Reality: Enabling item drop on death, causes character to madly rush to the last death location naked and without equipment in attempt to retreive their stuff, completely ignoring any danger along the way. Among people who voted for enabling the feature there were plenty of hardcore PVPers who wanted ability to rob other characters.

That's why I propose to just create a quick and dirty implementation and test it. People imagine all kind of stuff in their mind, and have different ideas of "what it will be like". Most likely they're wrong and reality is different. For example, it is possible that both you and hoihe are wrong in estimation of permadeath impact.

So the best idea would be to test it.

I would shy away from proposing "tests."


Pretty much every permanent negative change that caused exoduses on Baystation 12 were first implemented under the guise of a change and then kept in as if it was the normal state of affairs. Result? Exoduses.


As a fun fact... our previous setting was called NSS Exodus. I guess it was prophetic. The current is SEV Torch, indicating the flamewars that precluded its birth.

chad. permadeath is very much a RP thing. almost all (so i dont offend the people who do out there that i have never met) players do not act as though their own mortality is at stake. this greatly affects RP. it effects what they do and how they do it and who they do this with and what they talk about and how they talk about it and who they talk about it to. so.. in other words.. everything.

I disagree as there are aspects of this game which have nothing to do with death. In these instances such is not impacted by permadeath or not. In addition, at least with the group I spend most of my time with the vast majority of them RP exceedingly safe characters that rarely go to the more dangerous areas in or near their CR range. Honestly I'd say I am the most 'adventurous' of them. *shrug* My experience is that your statements don't hold true, though I certainly understand that your experience must prove otherwise. As I said previously, absolutes are rarely accurate. There are likely MANY who's RP is negatively impact by the fact that perma-death is a VERY rare occurrence on this server. However, there are at least some who's RP would never make you think that they had no fear of dying/losing their character. I would concede that MOST likely suffer from having no concern for their own mortality, but I cannot state that it affects all RP for all players, because I know for a fact it is not true through my own experience. I know players who have characters who have literally never died in PvP, PvE, or DM event... Never. Caution is a thing, even if the mechanics do not require it.

i dont want a change in the rules people. i would be all for it if it happened but im not stupid either. i want players to realize that you are not RPing your morality correctly because you are immortal and no matter what you will find a way to justify your immortal actions. I dont either. I am just as guilty as anyone else.. maybe moreso because i know im doing it.

This statement is simply false... Your experience may tell you that it is true in every case you have experienced, including your own personal experience. My experience tells me otherwise and if even one player is RP'ing their character's mortality correctly it destroys your argument, simply because your argument is based on absolutes. The simple truth is everyone's experience will vary, but there are some who very much do all they can to ensure their character's safety, within the bounds of the fact that their character has a dangerous profession (in some cases).

One of my greatest reasons for having difficulty partying is fear of death. On the surface, you can party with paladins or other objectively good-bound-by-honour characters and feel safe, but why party with anyone (stranger) else? Chances are if they are willing to kill to get money, they will backstab you. Now this is a bit of an exagaration, but the more "shady characters" are around at once the harder it is to party. It is safer to go alone than to expose your back.

And let's not even talk UD. In the UD, there's no guaranteed stranger-type who won't backstab you. I'll admit I still havn't figured out how to justify forming an adventuring party in the UD as a drow that wants to live.

[NegInfinity]

I would shy away from proposing "tests."

I wouldn't. Tests determine whether somebody is right or wrong. Alternative to testing is wasting eternity writing walls of text full of circular arguments.

Basically, arguments presented by you remind me of the great tiefling tail proposition outrage. "The tails are a slippery slope! They're the first step on the road that can turn our belowed server into den of depravity and corruption. Today it is the tails, next it'll be wings, then it is body grafts, and then worse and worse". Or something. I seriously received those kind of responses back then. This sounds like overestimation of negative effects to me.

Arguments resented by aaron remind me of arguments in favor of item drops on death I heard on that game I mentioned. That sounds like overestimation of positive effects.

Most likely both ideas are wrong, so it would be a good idea to release a few permadeath tokens and see how they impact characters. I personally think that the impact on the server will be non-existent.

[aaron22]

personally i think instead of tokens that will just be time from a team member to design, implement and execute we should just tell DMs to be a bit more deliberate in their strikes. if in an event someone is careless and not respecting mortality that if... if they die give them a strike. if they are quietly observing some adventuring, and the group wipes they all get a strike. if they are observing PvP and someone loses.. they get a strike.

this is easier to implement and i think creates a spectre of death that could give a nudge in the right direction.

just another alternative

[Reckeo]

The OP suggested optional permadeath, and that's fine. But the longer the conversation of server-wide perma-death carries on the more it appears to be a matter of a very small select group of players seeking out a sense of 'exclusivity' to characters that survive into higher levels due to their being a risk of permanent death for everyone, not just those who opt into it. And then throwing veiled passive aggressive derogatory terms like 'snowflake' and 'mary-sue' to those that do not conform to this notion.

There are deeper psychological implications with this method of argument but there is no sense in discussing it here.

It seems it is a desperate attempt to change the server into something else for these select few who would enjoy an experience of accomplishment if they ever survived to that point. My argument would be that such a character to survive would be deprived of accomplishment due to mere amount of meta-game and luck that would be involved in reaching such a feat. It seems like in order to feel like you as a player have created an RP character that has 'survived', means you need to experience a risk of playing a character who can suffer from 'permanent death', otherwise it doesn't feel like you risked anything at all and gained nothing at all. I get that, but this is not an accurate way to determine player skill, role play skill, or accomplishment.

It would never be an accurate indicator of skill or accomplishment as a player of video games or role-play, or as a 'mortality' simulation. NOT IN THE FORGOTTEN REALMS SETTING IN THE NWN2 ENGINE WITH CUSTOM CONTENT.

It's shoe-horning in a falsified sense of competitiveness based around a meta-game notion of mortality in a fantasy role play realm where death can be reversed, and then placing a straw man argument against those who argue its opposite without looking at one simple fact:

Perma-death does have a place in this setting and it already exists! But not all the time, and nor should it be forced upon all who partake in playing on the server as that would come to the detriment to the enjoyment of many others who do not require such mechanics in place to generate a sense of accomplishment in a fantasy role playing game.

It's implementation wouldn't benefit the current community as a whole, it caters to a select minority who are crying for its implementation on false straw-man assumptions and emotionally fueled arguments. Some of the points made are valid and good, but is still has a time and place and doesn't really require much change as it stands since it is already available.

I think these players are emotionally yearning for something that is beyond the spectrum of what this Server offers, and are trying to force ALL OF US to conform to these standards in an attempt to get these real world needs met.

Maybe I'm crossing a line here, but I'm seeing a lot of circle talk, and a lot of extremely valid points on both ends of the argument being glossed over or straight up ignored in favor of continuing an argument that should have probably ended 4 pages ago.

[aaron22]

really strange aspect of this argument that i am apart of. i think i fight for a model of player that is more like hoihe than myself. a permadeath solution would render how i play right now as obsolete (or short lived). a player that wants to RP death and is tempted by "the joneses(me)" to have gud gear and gud smarts on the mobs feels the need to play a more OOC method in order to keep up at all. even if they dont want to and may feel somewhat ashamed that they have to be "that kinda player". maybe not.

if when nothing changes i will go on. i'll find the challenges elsewhere. and so will players like hoihe. they will strive because the niches he fills is desirable. and everything will be fine. maybe some of you will have that moment too where you get done doing/seeing something and wonder "would it be like that if death was feared?" maybe not.

have fun out there.

edited for misspeaking.

[chad878262]

In the end enforced perma-death is off the table because it would require a server wipe which won't happen. Otherwise all those players with half a dozen (or more!) level 30 PC's in their vault are far and away ahead of what any new player could hope to achieve...and all those PC's start with zero strikes!

I for one have always been an advocate of proper enforcement and perhaps even expansion of the perma-strikes rules, but anything beyond that or optional tokens is simply unrealistic unless it is implemented from day one.

[NegInfinity]

The OP suggested optional permadeath, and that's fine. But the longer the conversation of server-wide perma-death

There's no such "select group" and no such thing.

The "anti server wide perma death" discussion was started by hoihe for some incomprehensible reason without anyone proposed it.

That's how we got 7 pages in this thread.

[Reckeo]

The OP suggested optional permadeath, and that's fine. But the longer the conversation of server-wide perma-death

There's no such "select group" and no such thing.

The "anti server wide perma death" discussion was started by hoihe for some incomprehensible reason without anyone proposed it.

That's how we got 7 pages in this thread.

There is some bleed over from some other conversations carrying into this thread is all.